BP Lift

[sparks]

Have made BP in most recomended ways...CIA, pressed cake etc. See no improvement. Using the regular formula,,,75/15/10 and ball milling together for over 6 hrs...get a very fine powder but after granulating or pressing, still poor results. Even pressing then granulating no better.Better luck rewetting with 80-100 proof vodka?

Any help? Need to make large volume for multiple mortar shots...

[jimbo]

what charcoal are you using,you can't go wrong with willow.

 

 

[Fly]

There is nothing magic in making fast BP.My first question is what ball mill do you have?The two things I see done wrong most,

is not using good coal & not getting it milled enough.

 

When I say not milled enough is not always not long enough.The mill I just made can mill my powder in 2 hours.My ole one

took 6 hours to get the same fast powder.I will bet its something your missing in milling.

 

Tell us what mill you have, what kind of media your using & how much media you have in your jar?Those things would help

us to know before going any farther into this.

Fly

[Siegmund]

Fast enough lift is something I have a problem with too so I am no expert ... but one more question I'll throw out there is what caliber of mortars are we talking about?

 

I mention it only because, working with small shells and star mines, I beat my head against the BP-isnt-fast-enough wall for a long time before I tried changing the grain size -- and found my cheapo BP worked just fine in 1- and 2-inch tubes as long as I was granulating through a 12- to 20-mesh screen rather than a 4-mesh one.(And quite possibly my cheapo BP at 4-mesh would have worked fine in a very wide and tall mortar. Who knows. Couldnt find any 4-inch HDPE up here last summer.)

Edited January 5, 2011 by Siegmund

[pyrochris732]

use willow charcoal

[KruseMissile]

Some types of pine work for lift but grapevine, balsa, and willow all work really well.

[sparks]

Large ball mill with a 2 qt container inside 40% full with lead balls. Am sure I am getting good mix. Will try willow charcoal next...using air float now.

There is nothing magic in making fast BP.My first question is what ball mill do you have?The two things I see done wrong most,

is not using good coal & not getting it milled enough.

 

When I say not milled enough is not always not long enough.The mill I just made can mill my powder in 2 hours.My ole one

took 6 hours to get the same fast powder.I will bet its something your missing in milling.

 

Tell us what mill you have, what kind of media your using & how much media you have in your jar?Those things would help

us to know before going any farther into this.

Fly

[dagabu]

I found grape vine to suck actually and the current thread on Passfire also comes off to support that conclusion as well. White Pine charcoal seems to be the gold standard for charcoal at this time.

[sparks]

Large ball mill with a 2 qt container inside 40% full with lead balls. Am sure I am getting good mix. Will try willow charcoal next...using air float now.

[sparks]

Fast enough lift is something I have a problem with too so I am no expert ... but one more question I'll throw out there is what caliber of mortars are we talking about?

 

I mention it only because, working with small shells and star mines, I beat my head against the BP-isnt-fast-enough wall for a long time before I tried changing the grain size -- and found my cheapo BP worked just fine in 1- and 2-inch tubes as long as I was granulating through a 12- to 20-mesh screen rather than a 4-mesh one.(And quite possibly my cheapo BP at 4-mesh would have worked fine in a very wide and tall mortar. Who knows. Couldnt find any 4-inch HDPE up here last summer.)

[sparks]

Mortar is 1"x6"....lifting small "shell". 3/4 tsp of commercial powder does the job....takes at least twice as much homemade to get near results....larger tubes are doing ok as long as I cut a tight seal over the shell.....

I am a perfectionist and know I ought to be able to make a BP as good as commercial....even been pressing with a 6 ton jack on stand...pucks dry but on crushing there seems to be too much "powder" in relation to hard grains...

[Mumbles]

It's likely the charcoal you are using. Commercial airfloat, even with a good mill and extended milling times, usually only results in okay BP at best. Some say pressing BP speeds it up, some say it slows it down. About the only reliable fact is that it makes tougher grains, and typically has sharper edges, as well as being able to be measured by volume. You may be experiencing a lot of fines because you're only interested in lift sized powder. Still 10-20% Meal D sized grains (-50 mesh) is completely normal. It's one of the disadvantages of the method.

 

For these smaller shells, you'll probably want to use a smaller size of grain. 2FA (-4+12) is typically a bit large. You will probably want something that is -12 or -16 at least.

 

What size of lead are you using, and what is the diameter of your jar? It's also possible the lead is oversized for the jar, and is not grinding as efficiently as it should.

[Fly]

Sparks, pressing your powder gets you nothing as far as power.In my ball mill I use a little over half lead media.I don't think

that is your problem.What rpm is your drum turning.75 rpm is about right & using two lift sticks helps also.

 

One thing if your using water as a solvent keep it under 8%

 

Willow is always great coal,white pine works great also.I use silver maple & like it as good as anything.I started making

bp for use in my bp muzzle loader guns & for some time just could not get my bp to match Goex or others.But now mind

is faster then any can powder I have tested.

 

I think if you make a good coal from black willow or white pine "not yellow pine" mill it at some were around 75 rpm with

a couple of lift sticks you can't miss.Try Neds denatured alc solvent with 2% red gum binder & screen is threw 12 mesh

screen.

 

Fly

[sparks]

It's likely the charcoal you are using. Commercial airfloat, even with a good mill and extended milling times, usually only results in okay BP at best. Some say pressing BP speeds it up, some say it slows it down. About the only reliable fact is that it makes tougher grains, and typically has sharper edges, as well as being able to be measured by volume. You may be experiencing a lot of fines because you're only interested in lift sized powder. Still 10-20% Meal D sized grains (-50 mesh) is completely normal. It's one of the disadvantages of the method.

 

For these smaller shells, you'll probably want to use a smaller size of grain. 2FA (-4+12) is typically a bit large. You will probably want something that is -12 or -16 at least.

 

What size of lead are you using, and what is the diameter of your jar? It's also possible the lead is oversized for the jar, and is not grinding as efficiently as it should.

[sparks]

Mumbles......mill jar is 5x8 plastic. I glued 2 3/16 sq. stix inside for baffles. Using a small "soup can" full of 3/8 lead nalls. Powder seems well mixed. You have a good source for willow coal.....lg amounts? Also looking for a source in lg amounts for other chems....meed to make a lot of lift. Any luck with Benzolift?

[Mumbles]

This is the only bulk source of charcoal that I am aware of.

 

http://www.customcharcoal.com/index.html

 

I have no idea if a "small soup can" of lead balls is enough. The jar should be approximately half full. As for the other chemicals, check out the supplier review section or ebay. I never had much luck with benzolift, but I think I may have been granulating it too fine. I use granular BP for both lift and burst in canister shells. For lift it can be a bit violent, but functional, but as a burst I was consistently making salutes.

[pyrochris732]

yea man customcharcoal.com is a good value if you want to get willow. they give you 8 lbs for like 30 bucks including shipping. You just need to grind it down to airfloat yourself.

 

If you have access to willow trees in your area, it could be a fun project to just make your own. A member here on APC has a really good youtube video on how to do this. There are tons of them on that site too. As I understand it, it could take some trial and error to get it just right the first few times but definately not hard.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

I found grape vine to suck actually and the current thread on Passfire also comes off to support that conclusion as well. White Pine charcoal seems to be the gold standard for charcoal at this time.

I'd love to see that thread...

[dagabu]

There ya' go Freaky-Deaky-Dutchman!

 

Vine Charcoal

 

Also, we have lots of weeping willow here but the charcoal is no better then white pine in performance and the sparks are nothing to write home about. I found that hardwood charcoal and even some briquettes make nice sparks but dont make reactive charcoal.

 

I made charcoal from our vines two years ago after watching the SAFI video but was really disappointed in it. Now, I just buy my charcoal in lump form in 50# bags. I trade for special charcoal when I need it and find that white pine and hardwood are the only two I really need.

Edited January 8, 2011 by dagabu

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Ah that one, there's another one on passfire about grape charcoal, in that one I already replied it should be made with other ratios; 70-12-18.

[dagabu]

Yea, I had to bump it up to 78:18:10 to get the fuel I wanted for BP. I didn't like it at all for rockets.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

78-18-10 is pretty different than 70-18-12. My endburners sometimes blow up with 70-12-18, just too powerful.

[dagabu]

For endburners I use the standard 75:15:10 with hardwood charcoal, I like the sparks it creates.

[frosty90]

Also, we have lots of weeping willow here but the charcoal is no better then white pine in performance

 

Do you really reckon? Weeping willow is the best powder I have ever made, it makes even balsa look slow and plodding. I was quite surprised when i first tried it!

[sparks]

Will order some willow coal and try it next...any good KNO3 fertilizer available?