Sticker shock

[WSM]

A week or two ago I chanced to go by an agricultural supplier I've bought potassium nitrate from in the past. A few short years ago I bought 50 Lb bags of greenhouse grade for less than $20 per bag. Two years ago I bought one for $32, though I was surprised I wasn't shocked; there was a shortage rumored. This last time I asked about the same greenhouse grade of potassium nitrate and was quoted $55 for a 50 pound bag!

 

I'm still trying to get over it. Potassium nitrate is the one staple we can't get along without. Can you imaging trying to make fireworks without KNO₃? Even if I were inclined to try and make it, the required potassium salts (K₂CO₃, KCl, KHCO₃, etc.) are going to be expensive. The government doesn't have to regulate it, market forces are doing that for them (unless it's being taxed or tarrifed to drive these cost increases).

 

Maybe I'm over reacting to what you all know already. Maybe I'm unrealistic in my expectation of cheap nitre available to all. Any thoughts?

 

WSM

[Algenco]

It made a 50% jump in price about a month ago

[Algenco]

well, it went up another $5

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fertilizer-Nitrogen-Calcium-Potassium-Nitrate-Magnesium-/380225253994?pt=Fertilizer_Soil_Amendments&var=&hash=item9757235527

[hillbillyreefer]

The price of all agricultural nitrogen fertilizers has been increasing rapidly over the last few years. At one point in the last couple years bulk N was around $1500 US/tonne. Imagine having to buy hundreds of tonnes of it to grow your crops! Glad I went organic a decade ago!

 

[shagaKahn]

Prob'ly the methanol insanity. That and the corn lobby trying to hype HFC into everything--not just food. (Non-organic corn needs more nitrogen than any other crop).

 

Fuk the corn lobby sincerely.

[Algenco]

I was told the price increase was due to the rise in price of natural gas.

large amounts of nat gas is used to produce fertilizers

[hillbillyreefer]

Both of the above do place upward pressure on the prices. The price of natural gas has been on a downward slide for about 3 years. It's my belief that the demand created by the biofuels industry is the major driver behind the high demand for chemical fertilizers. Grain prices are good, farmers see profits, more chemicals equals more profits in this age of monoculture and factory farms.

No offense intended toward any other farmers on here. I'm also not saying farmers shouldn't profit from their labor and investments.

[shagaKahn]

You said it hbreefer: why shouldn't farmers (who are mocked and scorned by everyone and yet who keep us all alive) get rich off their work? My mom's folks in South GA are all dirt farmers and were poor for decades; why shouldn't they get to drive a Mercedes now if they want?

 

It's just that the biofuels thing is such a complete lie . . .

 

They've mandated methanol in the gasoline here in my state--perhaps everywhere?--but you couldn't pay me to burn it in any of my engines. Thankfully it's only in the regular grade unleaded so I can still buy straight gasoline in the Plus and Super grades.

 

Keep hoping the world will come to its senses about so-called biofuels--but I still see new "BIOETHANOL" bumper stickers every day. Sequential Fuels has a marvelously effective propaganda campaign running here and folks still seem to be swallowing it.

 

And all these hipsters driving diesel cars/trucks and who think it's so great to burn french-fry grease . . . A diesel-mechanic friend here says there's nothing worse for a diesel engine than glycerin and even the most sophisticated filtration methods can not remove all the glycerin from fry grease. The engines becomes less and less efficient as deposits build up and so they require still more fuel and kick out still more carbon emissions. The filthiest engines he has to work on have been burning vegetable oil.

 

Sorry for the tirade y'all. Just assumed the world would realize what a hoax the whole corn ethanol thing was six years ago. I mean really, if George Bush is behind it doesn't that tell us something?

[Peret]

Sorry for the tirade y'all. Just assumed the world would realize what a hoax the whole corn ethanol thing was six years ago. I mean really, if George Bush is behind it doesn't that tell us something?

Couldn't agree more with what you say. Corn ethanol has only 80% the energy density of gas, so I'm being forced to use a mixture that gives me less mileage - so I have to buy more - to enrich a handful of politically connected corporations. IMHO, the production of corn ethanol should be left to small cottage industries in Kentucky and Louisiana. But much as I despise W, it wasn't his administration that started subsidizing the corn agri-business. This particular piece of egregious corporate welfare has been going on for decades. The crazy thing is, it takes three times more fossil-fuel energy to produce this stuff than it gives back. I can see only one way this madness can be stopped.

[Algenco]

Peret, are you aware that we (taxpayers) subsize the Ethanol production $.40 per gal

Corn the least efficent source for fuel Ethanol

 

Shagakahn,plus grade is blended from regular and premium at the pump

Edited January 2, 2011 by Algenco

[shagaKahn]

Shagakahn,plus grade is blended from regular and premium at the pump

 

Jeez, just when I think I've got 'em licked!

 

Hey thanx Algenco for the heads-up on this; did some googling and it looks like the plus is a stoned rip-off, not being really a half'n half of regular and super but less than 35% super.

 

Great thread and still technically pyro since we are talking about explosions--even if they're contained in the compression chamber of an engine . . .

[shagaKahn]

Love your guillotine thumb, Peret.

 

Mind if I keep that?

[Mumbles]

Besides giving less fuel economy, ethanol in gasoline also increases certain kinds of undesirable emissions which could produce acid rain and the like. I pretty much despise environmentalists and this whole "green" revolution.

[shagaKahn]

Now wait Mumbles--don't throw out the baby with the bath. It's the environmentalists who dig deep and do the real homework who are (hopefully) changing the way the world perceives biofuels.

 

Ironically it's the grunts who bother to get dirty who are pulling the covers back on this corn ethanol hoax. That is, the engineers and mechanics and who get to see the harm these fuels do to engines and fuel delivery systems--while the complacent hipsters go on buying them.

 

Love the fact that hunters/fishermen (a group pretty much loathed by "environmentalists") are turning out to be the true feet-on-the-ground preservationists 'cause they're seeing close-up the impact of pollution and over-population.

[Peret]

There are environmentalists who don't want the forests clear-cut and the rivers polluted, and then there are environmentalists who want to bring an end to industrial civilization and turn us all back into freezing, starving agricultural peasants. I say support the first kind and render the others down into environmentally-friendly soap and fertilizer.

 

Algenco, I'm aware of the economics of ethanol. That's what makes me want to spit. They should pay me to put it in my car, since I already purchased it.

 

shagaKahn, feel free to take the guillotine pic. I borrowed it from some other web site anyway, years ago. It will do until I can get a picture of the real thing set up on the Capitol steps. Did you notice that the picture's title is "term limits"?

[Mumbles]

Ah yes, I should have specified. It amazes me some times of how little people are aware of repercussions of "green" living. They may be smugly pleased with their selves for their Prius, but pretend the strip mining, fuel costs, and environmental destruction to acquire the rare metals necessary for the batteries doesn't happen. The same is true for batteries in cell phones, laptop computers, and MP3 players, but I can selectively choose my facts just like they can.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the clear cutting of rainforests, or burning mountains of tires. I just try to research things instead of blindly following what I see on TV. On the plus side, this thing is making my job prospects much easier. There is tons of funding for new chemical research in my field.

 

I think eventually we may get off of petroleum derived fuels for personal transport, but it may be a while before we can do the same for commercial transport for energy density reasons. I think we will still be using combustion engines, but from more renewable sources. There are some cool things going on, such as polymerizing methane into longer chain hydrocarbons, and converting CO2 into carbon monoxide which can further be converted into synthetic gasoline.

[Skycastlefish]

If you use the food canning industry as a model, a reasonable person could presume that there will soon be arguments that KNO3 is not as as an efficient fertilizer as the non pyro fertilizers.

[Skycastlefish]

...despite the fact that the three macro nutrients for agriculture are nitrogen, phosphate, and potassium. Go figure Edited January 3, 2011 by Skycastlefish

[Peret]

One more jab at environmentalists, since the thread has already gone off-topic.

 

"What if a small group of world leaders were to conclude that the principal risk to the Earth comes from the actions of rich countries? And if the world is to survive, those rich countries would have to sign an agreement reducing their impact on the environment. Will they do it? The group's conclusion is "no." The rich countries won't do it. They won't change. So, in order to save the planet, the group decides: Isn't the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn't it our responsibility to bring that about?" - Maurice Strong

(actual verbatim quote from an interview with Canada West magazine in 1990 - sorry, I can't link the original source).

 

The significance of that is who Maurice Strong is."As head of UNEP, Strong convened the first international expert group meeting on climate change." - Wikipedia

Edited January 3, 2011 by Peret

[shagaKahn]

Great posts Mumbs and Peret. Since I'm the one who dragged this thread off-topic I guess I can finish beating it to death.

 

So great to see you mention the Prius, Mumbles. The great amerikan way we have of thinking we can buy our way out of trouble--and then be so smug about it.

 

The pressure's been on Toyota ever since they started building that thing to stop using nickel batts--but they're still the cheaper way to go so Toyota's bargaining that their user base is too complacent to do its homework. Well surprise, the CDC declared last year that nickel was the single most allergic substance in our environment (even over chromium which shocked me). And the one nickel extraction facility in amerika has a 5-mile dead zone around it, the effluent is so toxic. The nickel plant in the Ukraine has a 15-mile dead zone around it.

 

Last stat I promise: y'all have prob'ly seen that video the BBC fellow compiled in which he decided to stop using his car for a year. Well this fellow really did his homework and surprise: he discovered that the only time it's less carbon intense to ride mass transit is when it's jam packed with standing room only. Any other time it's actually more carbon-efficient to drive your car. He acknowledged that this was no argument to drive your car since mass transit was already out there and running and so should be used--but everyone imagines buses and trains somehow don't use carbon.

 

My wife's got us all licked; she's never had a driver's license in her life and bikes everywhere. And last week I met this truly insane kat who's built a bike with a flywheel. The bike has multiple derailleurs and when he gets the flywheel up to speed it can drive the bike at over 50 miles per hour.

[DasSchaben]

Hey, can I throw one more dart? It may be off topic, but you guys make good points.

 

Ah yes, I should have specified. It amazes me some times of how little people are aware of repercussions of "green" living. They may be smugly pleased with their selves for their Prius, but pretend the strip mining, fuel costs, and environmental destruction to acquire the rare metals necessary for the batteries doesn't happen. The same is true for batteries in cell phones, laptop computers, and MP3 players, but I can selectively choose my facts just like they can.

 

Exactly. It's kind of a complicated issue. I'm a little skeptical about the pro-organic/"sustainable farming"/greenwashing mentality my university promotes. Talk to some of the upper year undergrad or Masters students who plan to be environmental consultants and they really will give you the expected speech about the destructiveness of monoculture and traditional fertilizers (nitrates are killing fish, nitrates are leaching into the water supply in Cambodia, ethanol or hybrid fuels are the way to go, organically grown foods are more "nutritional"). These students generally didn't have much more background in biochemistry or toxicology (or market economy, world trade, geology, or sociology) than I do. I checked the program calendars!

 

I had to participate in a group discussion on "green living". Except for the Agricultural Studies student who grew up in a family of farmers, the group was fervently against traditional anything. I don't think they knew what to do with me. Cribbed from my discussion notes:

 

Factors they haven't mentioned: 1) what we are doing with this fertile and nutrient-packed soil, 2) local lithography, limnology, geology (planting on slopes?), 3) crop rotation & fallow period length, 4) deforestation impacting other ecological processes, whether or not the land is theoretically still usable, 5) re: "destructive" practices, what are we measuring here?

 

...yeah. Again, I'm not a life sciences or toxicology major. Still. The "conventional fuels and fertilizers are BAD!" mentality tends to be too simplistic, and its proponents cherry-pick facts to support their arguments. Generally speaking.

 

So that's why the price of KNO3 has, uh, skyrocketed. (Sorry. Tried to paraphrase, didn't get anywhere.)

[WSM]

Hey, can I throw one more dart? It may be off topic, but you guys make good points.

 

 

 

Exactly. It's kind of a complicated issue. I'm a little skeptical about the pro-organic/"sustainable farming"/greenwashing mentality my university promotes. Talk to some of the upper year undergrad or Masters students who plan to be environmental consultants and they really will give you the expected speech about the destructiveness of monoculture and traditional fertilizers (nitrates are killing fish, nitrates are leaching into the water supply in Cambodia, ethanol or hybrid fuels are the way to go, organically grown foods are more "nutritional"). These students generally didn't have much more background in biochemistry or toxicology (or market economy, world trade, geology, or sociology) than I do. I checked the program calendars!

 

I had to participate in a group discussion on "green living". Except for the Agricultural Studies student who grew up in a family of farmers, the group was fervently against traditional anything. I don't think they knew what to do with me. Cribbed from my discussion notes:

 

Factors they haven't mentioned: 1) what we are doing with this fertile and nutrient-packed soil, 2) local lithography, limnology, geology (planting on slopes?), 3) crop rotation & fallow period length, 4) deforestation impacting other ecological processes, whether or not the land is theoretically still usable, 5) re: "destructive" practices, what are we measuring here?

 

...yeah. Again, I'm not a life sciences or toxicology major. Still. The "conventional fuels and fertilizers are BAD!" mentality tends to be too simplistic, and its proponents cherry-pick facts to support their arguments. Generally speaking.

 

So that's why the price of KNO3 has, uh, skyrocketed. (Sorry. Tried to paraphrase, didn't get anywhere.)

 

Wow! A voice of reason crying in the wilderness. My faith and hopes for the future of humanity and in our youth just got kicked up a notch. Das Schaben, thanks for the breath of fresh air after all the stale propaganda the media and false "science" has blown our way. Just more evidence of the rampant chemophobia afflicting our society through the propagation of ignorance and fear (instead of their opposites, knowledge and faith).

 

Now if we could just get them to increase the supply and lower the cost of potassium nitrate ...

 

WSM

[Crushedknee]

Funny thing, but the Push for Green or organic Products may produce cheaper Nitrates in the end..Alot of research is being done in micro Ammonia production..To make use of Off peak power production and to create green fertilizer. Making Ammonia from Wind or solar Electricity is coming to fill the demand for Organic fertilizer..Or at least carbon Neutral not sure what defines Organic But making it Directly From wind and Water sounds pretty green to me. At least it would allow vegans to eat without buying a Petroleum product or supporting animal enslavement for their poo..

[Peret]

At least it would allow vegans to eat without buying a Petroleum product or supporting animal enslavement for their poo..

I for one couldn't care less what vegans eat, or whether they eat at all. I don't care to think about their hideous diet, and I certainly don't want to be made to follow it. Vegans are on my list of people who should STFU about their beliefs and stop trying to change the world to their way of life. <checks list> Yep, right up there with people who say fireworks should be banned because they frighten birds and wild animals.

[shagaKahn]

People who need to preach their way of life (vegan or otherwise) to others are in the experimental stage and are still trying to convince themselves. Once (or if it ever) sinks in they'll shut up about it.