Benzoate vs. salicylate

[mabuse00]

Hi,

 

 

sodium salicylate seems to perform a little better compared to the benzoates, but also nearly 50% more expensive than Potassium Benzoate.

 

Have you ever made comparisons? Is there a big difference?

 

 

 

And concerning whistlemix in general:

I don't have a proper press (yet?).

But my father has a pretty strong vice at home. Some 25mm (coreless) whistlers I made with that thing functioned like the ones you can buy. No explosions, constant burning speed.

Can I get away with that, at least with smaller motors <= 25mm?

 

And how realistic is the possibility of igniting the propellant during pressing? Most equipment parts are conductive so esd should not be a serious problem, but one cannot evade a little friction...

How do you protect yourself?

I mean, is it completely insane to work without blasting shield? What do you think?

[dagabu]

Hi,

 

 

sodium salicylate seems to perform a little better compared to the benzoates, but also nearly 50% more expensive than Potassium Benzoate. Yes, sali is a much stronger fuel for whistles. I prefer benzo (both potassium and sodium) over sali, the sound is all wrong and your tubes have to be very strong.

 

Have you ever made comparisons? Is there a big difference?

 

 

 

And concerning whistlemix in general:

I don't have a proper press (yet?).

But my father has a pretty strong vice at home. Some 25mm (coreless) whistlers I made with that thing functioned like the ones you can buy. No explosions, constant burning speed. That is almost a 3# rocket, that is pretty big for a beginner.

Can I get away with that, at least with smaller motors <= 25mm?

 

And how realistic is the possibility of igniting the propellant during pressing? Most equipment parts are conductive so esd should not be a serious problem, but one cannot evade a little friction... A little whistle rocket blew up in my vice at PGI this last summer, a friend was removing the spindle when it popped. Yes, it can explode even when you are doing everything right.

 

How do you protect yourself?

I mean, is it completely insane to work without blasting shield? What do you think? I dont press whistle anymore without a metal shield. It will save your life.

[mabuse00]

That is almost a 3# rocket, that is pretty big for a beginner.

You mean three inches or what?

Well, it was the only paper tube a had ready and I wanted to try out something that whistles (on the ground, like a fountain).

 

 

 

Ok, than I have to postpone my whistlerocket project.

I can't mount a proper shield at that bench and I can't have rocket motors or parts flying around at the place.

 

 

If wan't to build myself a proper pressing device to work outside sometime, what force would be necessary for common whistle motors?

[dagabu]

You mean three inches or what?

Well, it was the only paper tube a had ready and I wanted to try out something that whistles (on the ground, like a fountain).

 

 

 

Ok, than I have to postpone my whistlerocket project.

I can't mount a proper shield at that bench and I can't have rocket motors or parts flying around at the place.

 

 

If wan't to build myself a proper pressing device to work outside sometime, what force would be necessary for common whistle motors?

 

Common BP Rocket Engine Sizes http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif

Size I.D. Length http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif http://www.passfire.com/images/clear.gif

2oz 3/8" 2-3/4"

4 oz 1/2" 5"

8 oz 5/8" 6-1/4"

1 lb 3/4" 7-1/2"

2 lb 7/8" 10"

3 lb 1" 10"

4 lb 1-1/4" 12"

6 lb 1-1/2" 16"

 

Whistle fuel can be very close to flash (some kinds) in its brisiance so when a 3 lb rocket CATOs, it makes quite the boom! Even more unsettling is THIS TEST where only 500g of whistle is detonated in front of a blast shield. Considering that I wont make any comp in less then a 1000g lot due to to many variances, that's quite a lot of boom.

 

My personal suggestion is to wait until you have a good deal of experience with pyro in general before making whistle.

Edited October 16, 2010 by dagabu

[mabuse00]

Very impressing, but 500g is crazy.

And expensive too;)

 

I used 20g, but it wasn't suposed to be a rocket.

 

OK, forget it.

I'll try further with sorbitol.

[ausgoty]

Very impressing, but 500g is crazy.

And expensive too;)

 

I used 20g, but it wasn't suposed to be a rocket.

 

OK, forget it.

I'll try further with sorbitol.

 

 

Why don't you just try BP for now. Make a 1" ID BP rocket, plenty of danger there!

 

Whistle mix and rockets just up the antie to the next level, not a place anyone should be without traveling the road that gets you there first.

 

That being said, if you can make an excellent 12 mm BP rocket then maybe its time to try a 12mm whistle.

 

Most of us will never make 25mm ID whistle rockets. They are just too big and dangerous!

[dagabu]

I used 20g, but it wasn't suposed to be a rocket.

 

I am confused, you called it a 25 mm whistle motor. Do you want to make whistling inserts?

[pdfbq]

I'm getting a bit nervous here.

I have a 14mm by 80mm whistle rocket tool.

I believe when its full of whistle that will be about 10-12 grams.

@Dagabu

You wrote a little whistle rocket went off when removing the spindle. What exactly happened?

Did it blew with a big bang or did it went of as a rocket and blew the spindle out?

I mean, I have this blasting shield of 8mm Lexan but when removing the spindle i have to do it by hand.

And what can an experienced pyro do about this?

[mabuse00]

I did not now that there is some classification. I called it a 25mm whistle, because I used a piece of 25mm hull.

I touched whistlemix for the first time and wanted to try it out, thats all.

 

 

 

Why don't you just try BP for now

Because I don't have a ball mill. KNO3/Sorbitol is easier for me.

 

 

What exactly happened? Did it blew with a big bang or did it went of as a rocket and blew the spindle out?

Whould like to know that, too.

But even just burning does pose a risk of explosion/CATO, so from the view of safety there's no difference.

I 'd like to be shure this cannot happen...

[dagabu]

I'm getting a bit nervous here.

I have a 14mm by 80mm whistle rocket tool.

I believe when its full of whistle that will be about 10-12 grams.

@Dagabu

You wrote a little whistle rocket went off when removing the spindle. What exactly happened?

Did it blew with a big bang or did it went of as a rocket and blew the spindle out?

I mean, I have this blasting shield of 8mm Lexan but when removing the spindle i have to do it by hand.

And what can an experienced pyro do about this?

 

Good, be nervous, that may save your hand.

 

Whistle needs to be pressed in small increments, 1/2 ID is preferable. Your rocket is 14mm or 1/2" or a 4 oz rocket. You would need a 100mm, 4" tube to make a whistle with a bulk head. You will need a press to accomplish this, you CANNOT pound whistle.

 

Picture this: 3000 people attending PGI, a hundred or so are making shells and rockets in a big tent. In the front left hand corner is a relatively new rocketeer that has just finished making the SAME size whistle rocket. He puts the base in my vice (all aluminum) and twists the motor off the spindle. BOOM! Bits of whistle fuel on fire go everywhere, the guy making the motor was wearing all the right clothing but still received two burns on his stomach where the fuel burned him.

 

He was incredibly lucky. He had his fuel covered, all of my pyro stuff was in the magazine. Had his tub of fuel gone off... well, you have seen the video.

 

The consensus now is that plastics have no place in shields, I use 1/4" aluminum plate to guard my press now.

[dagabu]

I did not now that there is some classification. I called it a 25mm whistle, because I used a piece of 25mm hull.

I touched whistlemix for the first time and wanted to try it out, thats all.

 

Because I don't have a ball mill. KNO3/Sorbitol is easier for me.

 

Whould like to know that, too.

But even just burning does pose a risk of explosion/CATO, so from the view of safety there's no difference.

I 'd like to be shure this cannot happen...

 

I will try to address your concerns but I am more concerned that you dont have the knowledge yet to determine the difference between a rocket and an insert. Pyrotechnics has specific terms for items and such so that we can all understand how to make pyro without making stuff like a chemical that will react with another chemical and hurt you.

 

For instance, there is no such thing as a 25mm whistle, you left out the last part and that confuses me. It sounds like you want to make a 25mm whistle fountain, that would not propel itself, it would just whistle. As a type of fountain, that's fine, as an insert, you would need to put it into a 250mm shell. This is why I was confused.

 

To address the other issues, KNO3/Sorbitol burns fiercely as does black powder but they do not deflagrate like whistle fuel in the open and unconfined. There is a huge difference.

 

There is no way to make sure, all pyro is risky. You must press whistle, hydraulically or mechanically.

 

I think that if you were to do some reading first, understand the fundamentals and then find someone close that is willing to show you how to make whistle, then I say go for it but I am not convinced that you have the knowledge or ability to do so right now.

[Algenco]

Very impressing, but 500g is crazy.

And expensive too;)

 

I used 20g, but it wasn't suposed to be a rocket.

 

OK, forget it.

I'll try further with sorbitol.

 

 

Not the cheapest stuff, but I wouldn't say it's expensive

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Good, be nervous, that may save your hand.

 

Whistle needs to be pressed in small increments, 1/2 ID is preferable. Your rocket is 14mm or 1/2" or a 4 oz rocket. You would need a 100mm, 4" tube to make a whistle with a bulk head. You will need a press to accomplish this, you CANNOT pound whistle.

 

Picture this: 3000 people attending PGI, a hundred or so are making shells and rockets in a big tent. In the front left hand corner is a relatively new rocketeer that has just finished making the SAME size whistle rocket. He puts the base in my vice (all aluminum) and twists the motor off the spindle. BOOM! Bits of whistle fuel on fire go everywhere, the guy making the motor was wearing all the right clothing but still received two burns on his stomach where the fuel burned him.

 

He was incredibly lucky. He had his fuel covered, all of my pyro stuff was in the magazine. Had his tub of fuel gone off... well, you have seen the video.

 

The consensus now is that plastics have no place in shields, I use 1/4" aluminum plate to guard my press now.

 

AND MORE POSTS...

 

Dude, you really think you're the messiah of fireworks, don't you?

Talk like a dad to your kids, not to your fellow pyro's.

[dagabu]

Dude, you really think you're the messiah of fireworks, don't you?

Talk like a dad to your kids, not to your fellow pyro's.

 

Hardly, shall we review YOUR slams, put downs and such for comparison?

 

If you have a problem with the truthfulness or validity of my statements then tell me what they are and I will change and/or apologize for them. I dont ever want to be part of another accident or lead someone to make items that are beyond their abilities. I dont post about chems, I dont know a thing about chemistry, I dont chime in about synthesis or in pyro that I have not done and succeeded at myself.

 

If there is someone that comes here looking to vault far beyond their abilities should we not challenge them and stand at the door to injury?

 

Lets do it your way shall we and be silent! Better to hear the cries of the injured...

 

Dad out

[WonderBoy]

Dag if I'm not mistaken he was removing a rammer from the rocket, not the spindle. I was in the tent about 30' away and the pop from that rocket wasn't that much louder than a firecracker. If the rocket was finished I believe it would have been much louder. But there definitely was quite a bit of burning fuel flying, thankfully everyone had their comps covered.

[pdfbq]

@Dagabu

Now that the smoke has cleared a bit.

Why does this accident happens to a relatively new rocketeer. What does this new guy do differently than an experienced one, removing a spindle or rammer?

Edited October 24, 2010 by pdfbq

[dagabu]

Dag if I'm not mistaken he was removing a rammer from the rocket, not the spindle. I was in the tent about 30' away and the pop from that rocket wasn't that much louder than a firecracker. If the rocket was finished I believe it would have been much louder. But there definitely was quite a bit of burning fuel flying, thankfully everyone had their comps covered.

 

I dont have an email Back from Norm, I will comment when he writes back. As far as to the why? I really dont have a clue why this happened, I pressed whistles up yesterday looking for issues but found none.

[Updup]

As far as a booster goes, you don't think it matters that much what I use for whistle? Also, do any of you know the sensitivity of benzonate vs. salicylate?

 

 

[Ralph]

go for benzoate its cheaper kinda seems a bit faster to (but dont quote me on that I rarely use my salicilate because its so expensive(its really expensive here in the US its just less cheap))

[dagabu]

As far as a booster goes, you don't think it matters that much what I use for whistle? Also, do any of you know the sensitivity of benzonate vs. salicylate?

 

Sali makes faster whistle but Benzo is cheaper. Dollar for dollar, Sodium Benzo is your best bet.

[Juiceh]

@Dagabu

Now that the smoke has cleared a bit.

Why does this accident happens to a relatively new rocketeer. What does this new guy do differently than an experienced one, removing a spindle or rammer?

 

I think a better question would be, how does a newbie rocketeer safely remove spindles and rammers from a whistle rocket motor? I'm sure there are many folks new to whistle rockets who would love to know the proper technique, or tricks, or even special removal tools some may have made just for this purpose if any such exist.

 

I myself have never made a whistle motor, but I plan to in the future. I just assume that the spindles and rammers are removed the same way tooling is removed from a BP core burner. I er on the side of caution and remove my BP spindles very slowly and carefully giving the motor a twist on the spindle until it breaks free and then slowly twist and simultaneously pull the motor up off the tooling. I know the chances of having an ignition of a BP motor during tooling removal is pretty low. But, I've had some pretty spectacular BP CATOs and really don't want one of those happening in my hands much less a whistle motor.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Juiceh

[dagabu]

The "best" way to remove the spindle would be to push it off using a over sized washer sitting under the spindle and on top of the base and have a cam or bolt push the motor off. There would be the minimum of friction then.

 

Yes, a lot of us just twist them off and I know that I dont breathe when I do.

[pdfbq]

So don't breath when removing the spindle is the answer!?

[dagabu]

So far- So good!

[Justsomeguy253]

What is everyone's thoughts on using copper oxychloride as a catalyst in benzo mix?