Dextrin and Arabic Gum

[Updup]

Try to find it, maybe a few years ago

 

That didn't really make sence...

[Algenco]

That didn't really make sence...

 

 

go to the hardware /paint store, wherever and try to find CMC, I even asked several if they could order it, only one knew what I was talking about.

[Updup]

go to the hardware /paint store, wherever and try to find CMC, I even asked several if they could order it, only one knew what I was talking about.

 

Oh... I guess people just don't use wallpaper anymore, since they relized how sucky it is to take it off.

[Algenco]

they still use wallpaper, but the adhesive is latex based

[Mumbles]

I think more they've just moved on to other things.

[diyakes]

hi.

could some one tell me do you add Dex and / or Arabic Gum in formula or do you prepare a solution with water or alcholo to wet the formula with it?

thanks for your help.

regards.

Diya

[stix]

Hi Diya,

 

Regarding Dextrin. I guess it depends on what you are wanting to achieve.

 

If it's a charcoal based star formula (or basic BP), then you just add the dextrin "powder" to the mix in the quantity asked for - usually around 3 to 5%. You then must "activate" the dextrin by using a small amount of water. You can add alcohol which helps the water "wet" and most importantly "absorb" into the charcoal (given that charcoal is present in your composition).

 

Alternatively, you can make "Dextrin Liquor" which does have the advantage in that the dextrin is already dissolved, and therefore makes it much easier, quicker (and less dextrin required) to incorporate into your mix.

 

Stix Dextrin Liquor Preparation: (By Weight.)

• Into a pot (saucepan/skillet etc.) combine 90 parts water with 10 parts Dextrin Powder (by weight is good enough).
• Use Cold Water and try to mix the best you can.
• Place the pot onto a stove and slowly bring the mix to the boil (stirring constantly)
• Turn down to a simmer - keep mixing until the dextrin powder is completely dissolved.

This takes around 1/2 to 1 hour. What you should be left with is a golden brown coloured thin liquid.

• Decant into a "spritzer" bottle for later use.

The good thing about the "Spritzer" bottle is that after use, the nozzle becomes naturally sealed. I've got some in a bottle that has been sitting around for more that 2yrs and it's still viable. You only need to soak the nozzle and tube in warm water and you're good to go.

 

This method is "My" method, but gained from information I've read on this forum - it may not work exactly as described, but nevertheless I think it worthwhile to know how to make it.

 

Regarding Gum Arabic, I don't really know. I have some, but have never used it. The only thing that I do know is that it is more "flexible" than Dextrin, and therefore more useful for creating BP fuse.... Maybe, but I've never tested.

 

I hope this is of some use, and others put forward their ideas.

 

Cheers.

Edited June 7, 2018 by stix

[diyakes]

dear Stix

thanks for your fast and detailed reply.

definetly today i ll try it.

 

i am worikng on indoor formulas as like birthday candles and volcanos.

 

my problem is; my formulas has too much place in same volume as like 3'' conic case.

so trying to make a compact mix

just becasue of the NC it will take too much place. the samples in the market they put 20gram in same conic, i could just 8 gram

 

this is the my aim.

 

so maybe with dex solution i can acchive to get a compact mixture.

regards.

[stix]

I don't know if "Dextrin Solution" will help you with what you want to achieve - but I don't think it would make things any worse/harder/unachievable.

 

I don't understand the other things you want, therefore I'll leave it as that.

 

Cheers.

[diyakes]

thanks for your help Stix.

[stix]

No probs

[Baldor]

I think the things you are trying to make are pressed, not bonded. Pressing (Or ramming) will reduce the volume of some compositions to half or one third. No binder will change the volume of the composition a lot by itself.

[Baldor]

Related.. I want to prime some dragon eggs with rough charcoal. I discovered that even a little water kills my eggs, so I want to try an alcohol binder. I have three options: Red gum, arabic gum and colofony. I know for sure colofony dissolves very well in isopropil alcohol (I used it as flux for soldering). Some sugestion?

[Mumbles]

Gum arabic is not soluble in alcohol.

 

To add to what Stix already described, gum arabic is most often used as a solution. There's a few instances where it's used as a powder, but it's not as common. I'm not sure I'd describe it as more flexible though. My impression has been that it makes good blackmatch because it's less suceptible to humidity. It definitely makes very hard stars and comets.

 

Typically, it's prepared as a 4% solution. I typically heat the water to facilitate dissolving it. It should make a light yellow to brown solution depending on the quality/grade of gum arabic used. On it's own, the solution will eventually go sour. I'm not sure how the binding strength is affected, but I can't stand the smell. Adding in a little bit of a preservative like a benzoate or salicylate will make it last nearly indefinitely. I prefer potassium benzoate as to not tempt any sodium from affecting my colors.

[NeighborJ]

That's a great idea, adding benzoate, I like it. Haven't ever had it go bad on me but I use quite a fair amount of the stuff so I may give that idea a try.

[Mumbles]

It doesn't take much. 4-5 grams in a gallon is plenty.

[diyakes]

I think the things you are trying to make are pressed, not bonded. Pressing (Or ramming) will reduce the volume of some compositions to half or one third. No binder will change the volume of the composition a lot by itself.

maybe you right Baldor. acttualy the main problem is the shape of NC. it is voluminous material. so i thank that if i bond it with some material i can reduce the volume.

but maybe i shold try this method; i ll wet the mix with alcohol as like ethanole. then will fill the cone direcktly. what do you think?

also could you tell me which alcohole is best for wet indoor fireworks materials?(ethanole? isopropil?

and have some one tested picric acid for indoor?

Edited June 8, 2018 by diyakes

[Baldor]

"volcanoes" are very similar to gerbs (somebody correct me, please), and gerbs are pressed or rammed, and there is no need for a binder. Here you have a tutorial for gerbs: http://pyrodata.com/definitions/Fountain

 

The reduction in volume is accomplished by the compression of the composition.

[diyakes]

thats very good tutariol.

i ll fallow it asap.

and will inform you if you wish.

 

regards

salim.

[Zumber]

Gum arabic is not soluble in alcohol.

 

To add to what Stix already described, gum arabic is most often used as a solution. There's a few instances where it's used as a powder, but it's not as common. I'm not sure I'd describe it as more flexible though. My impression has been that it makes good blackmatch because it's less suceptible to humidity. It definitely makes very hard stars and comets.

 

Typically, it's prepared as a 4% solution. I typically heat the water to facilitate dissolving it. It should make a light yellow to brown solution depending on the quality/grade of gum arabic used. On it's own, the solution will eventually go sour. I'm not sure how the binding strength is affected, but I can't stand the smell. Adding in a little bit of a preservative like a benzoate or salicylate will make it last nearly indefinitely. I prefer potassium benzoate as to not tempt any sodium from affecting my colors.

I am trying to replace dextrin with gum arabic to bind my charcoal willow stars but when I use gum arabic as a binder and start rolling stars I am facing problem. Stars are getting flat insted of round...same stars with dextrin rolls very easily. Also damped composition becomes rubber like consistency.

How to achieve round stars using gum arabic?

[Mumbles]

I mentioned this in the other active gum arabic thread, but I always use gum arabic solution in conjunction with another binder. I haven't found the solution itself to provide a lot of binding strength when wet. Dextrin or SGRS provides wet binding strength, and those combined with gum arabic solution provide rock hard dry binding strength.

[Zumber]

Thank you very much....!! Last month I used 50:50 gum arabic and dextrin together and it worked good without facing problem during rolling.

[Soloserly]

I know this is an older thread, but I thought I'd weigh in on "food safe" binders:

I have found that SGRS is ideal when water is the only solvent, drying conditions are good (warm & dry air) and I want very hard durable stars.  (SGRS doesn't like alcohol, which inhibits its ability to absorb water.)  When I am ricing black powder and I want large durable grains I use SGRS every time, as it gives me the most durable finished product without sacrificing burn speed significantly.

For blackmatch I have found that I get very flexible strands that don't crack or flake if I use a combination of Gum Arabic and CMC, with the former dissolved in the hot water I'm mixing with the mill dust.  Burn rate is very consistent and I don't end up with powder crumbs all over the place when I'm using it.  It's the closest I've come to commercial black match.  I no longer use Dextrin in blackmatch at all, as IMO it is inferior as a binder in flexible applications.  

So many recipes call for Dextrin and it is cheap and easy to get.  It's my go-to mainly when rolling or pumping stars/comets using water/alcohol misting.