white smoke

[dave321]

hi,

 

i am currrently using the following mixture

 

ammonium chloride 41.2%

potassium chlorate 35.3%

lactose 23.5%

 

i would like to

1) increase the burn rate

2) increase the smoke density

 

doing one seems to exclude the other...................any merits in using a small amont of colophony in the mix ?

any thoughts welcome

 

the mix is prepared prior to use, even though literature suggests such mixes are in fact stable ( i am aware of ammonium chlorate issues)

 

any better mixes ? low toxicity mixes ?

 

dave

[Twotails]

woooo, slow down there, im halfe asleep, but chlorates and ammonium shouldent be used together(ammonium chlorate is HIGHLY unstable!) the mix you posted is not a safe one at that. Becarful, very carful with it, There are other formulas that arnt so sensitive. maby another member can bring this matter up further, im about to fall asleep....

[TrueBluePyro]

What is a good smoke mix using zinc oxide?

[inonickname]

Yeh, twotails is right. At least replace that chlorate with a perchlorate or something similar. If that mix gets wet there's a potential for double displacement to ammonium chlorate, which is beyond any kind of sensitive you've probably had to deal with before. It will explode, spontaneously. With perchlorates there is still potential for the double displacement to occur, but the products of it won't be a big problem. If you could use ammonium perchlorate that should negate basically any problems (except for the cost).

[Mumbles]

I'd check out the PFP database. Don't get too excited that it shows two mixes kind of similar to yours, I still wouldn't ever use them.

 

http://www.privateda.../pfp/smoke.html

 

For the smokes containing realgar, sulfur or Sb2S3 should work too, and are pretty similar to some of the others I've seen. Below is Degn White Smoke.

 

Sulfur -16

KNO3 - 12

Charcoal - 1

 

Once you have a better mix, hopefully you can dial it in to your liking

[NightHawkInLight]

If I remember correctly, the composition you use is similar to a military comp.

 

It seems everyone glanced over what you said here:

the mix is prepared prior to use, even though literature suggests such mixes are in fact stable ( i am aware of ammonium chlorate issues)

If you are not storing the stuff and if you mix it outdoors I would not be worried about it at all. Wost case scenario it would ignite and burn as you're getting ready to light it on an especially humid day. It certainly would not detonate, being that it is a comp containing only 35% oxidizer.

 

Personally I like nitrate/sugar smokes with added paraffin.

Edited September 28, 2010 by NightHawkInLight

[dave321]

ok,

 

thanks for the replys..........and as i said i am aware of the potential to form ammonium chlorate.........but bear in mind i dont store it, and the literature does point to the unexpected stability of these mixtures

 

i am currently looking at using colophony which seems to have much promise (as fuel and smoke producer)

 

the nitrate sugar mix i dont like and it burns quite violently and very hot and such mixtures seem to be used by people who have no acces to other chems.

 

i prefer more traditional mixtures

 

dave

[Ralph]

nitrate paraffin wax and sugar are all dirt cheap (wax would be the most expensive but only just) you could probably make 5 times the amount of smoke mix at the same cost by doing that and the mixes with added paraffin burn quite slowly so may be the best route you should give it ago

[50AE]

No way ammonium chlorate can be formed, because no less soluble salt as product will occur.

 

This reaction cannot happen: KClO3 + NH4Cl -> NHClO3 + KCl

Simply because KCl and NHClO3 are much more soluble than KClO3

 

The only ammonium salt I know that never has to be mixed with chlorates is ammonium perchlorate, because

 

KClO3 + NH4ClO4 -> KClO4 + NH4ClO3

 

KClO4 is very insoluble compared to the other substances, it will crystallize and ammonium chlorate will form.

 

Ammonium chloride/chlorate mixtures are still made by the amateur and I personally know people that have stored such mixtures for months. I've also made such compositions and the smoke is very dense.

Edited September 29, 2010 by 50AE

[Ralph]

No way ammonium chlorate can be formed, because no less soluble salt as product will occur.

 

This reaction cannot happen: KClO3 + NH4Cl -> NHClO3 + KCl

Simply because KCl and NHClO3 are much more soluble than KClO3

 

The only ammonium salt I know that never has to be mixed with chlorates is ammonium perchlorate, because

 

KClO3 + NH4ClO4 -> KClO4 + NH4ClO3

 

KClO4 is very insoluble compared to the other substances, it will crystallize and ammonium chlorate will form.

 

Ammonium chloride/chlorate mixtures are still made by the amateur and I personally know people that have stored such mixtures for months. I've also made such compositions and the smoke is very dense.

 

it only takes a few mg of ammonium chlorate to spontaneously decompose to set the whole mix on fire or in some cases detonate it its equilibrium some can be formed I wouldnt store this mix if my life depended on it

[Skycastlefish]

I'd check out the PFP database. Don't get too excited that it shows two mixes kind of similar to yours, I still wouldn't ever use them.

 

http://www.privateda.../pfp/smoke.html

 

For the smokes containing realgar, sulfur or Sb2S3 should work too, and are pretty similar to some of the others I've seen. Below is Degn White Smoke.

 

Sulfur -16

KNO3 - 12

Charcoal - 1

 

Once you have a better mix, hopefully you can dial it in to your liking

 

I use the above white smoke mix as well. Its pretty stinky but it works great, not to mention it uses only black powder chems which always makes me happy Your probably going to want to prime it though. I use maybe a teaspoon of 60/30/10 green mix as a prime, but you can use pretty much any BP mix that isn't so hot it will blow a plug.

 

Edit: sorry, I should clarify 60/30/10 KNO3/C/S

Edited September 30, 2010 by Skycastlefish

[WSM]

50AE makes a valid point. I have used a similar composition for twenty five years (see below). I live where the relative humidity varies from 50%-80% year round. I have stored the mixed composition for months and pelletized composition for longer. This is one of those compositions that goes counter to common wisdom, but works. It burns cool enough to only char but not ignite the paper container it may be fired in.

 

The composition I use is:

 

WHITE SMOKE

40 potassium chlorate

30 ammonium chloride

13 sodium bicarbonate

13 lactose

04 rosin (Vinsol resin)

 

I would never add water to this mix but have used either alcohol or acetone (without regard to any moisture content they may have gained from the atmosphere) to dampen before pressing pellets or forming flat cakes of this mix. It hardens to a firm pellet which burns slowly and forms a blackish, highly porous and firm ash and emits a huge amount of white (low toxicity, compared to others) smoke. I really like this smoke composition and have for a long time.

 

This composition may be used without binding. The rosin may be omitted and the composition fired as a pile, and performs just as well. It can be dumped into a cardboard container and ignited with a fuse and still works. Most smoke mixes need special packaging to volatize and then condense the dye but this one forms it's own chamber by the firm ash it forms. The dense smoke it forms is the least noxious I've experienced, as well.

 

Don't judge it on the face of it. Like I said, the chemistry appears hazardous; my experience has shown otherwise in practice. Try it and judge for yourself.

 

WSM

 

 

No way ammonium chlorate can be formed, because no less soluble salt as product will occur.

 

This reaction cannot happen: KClO3 + NH4Cl -> NHClO3 + KCl

Simply because KCl and NHClO3 are much more soluble than KClO3

 

The only ammonium salt I know that never has to be mixed with chlorates is ammonium perchlorate, because

 

KClO3 + NH4ClO4 -> KClO4 + NH4ClO3

 

KClO4 is very insoluble compared to the other substances, it will crystallize and ammonium chlorate will form.

 

Ammonium chloride/chlorate mixtures are still made by the amateur and I personally know people that have stored such mixtures for months. I've also made such compositions and the smoke is very dense.

[PoorBoy]

sorry to bump a 2 year old thread but i figured this question belongs here. I was looking on neal's smokechemicals.com website (which is down atm) to find his ammonium chloride lactose smoke mix. I cant remember what it was or what is oxidizer was, but iirc it was extremely simple and looked safe. I found formula

 

KNO3 60

Ammonium Chloride 20

Airfloat 20

 

Anybody have any experience with this mix or something just like WSM's above mix minus chlorates?

 

I'm not interested in anything I cant store from now till 4th of july and sleep comfortably if it was under my pillow.

 

The posibility of a fire starting in my asbsence scares me.

[Potassiumchlorate]

I rarely make smoke mixes, but I prefer the cheap and simple KNO₃/sugar, 60:40.

 

Shidlovsky gives this one:

 

Potassium chlorate 20

Ammonium chloride 50

Naphtalene 20

Charcoal 10

 

This one by Shimizu seems interesting too:

 

Potassium nitrate 48.5

Sulfur 48.5

Realgar 3

 

Antimony(III)sulfide could maybe be used instead of realgar.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate

[californiapyro]

I have used the shimizu mix, minus realgar... it kicks ass! my only comment is it needs to be confined or it will just burn with no smoke

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OMEiImL9xw

 

[Potassiumchlorate]

I tried it as well this afternoon, but I just mixed it loosely. You are right about it not producing lots of smoke in that state.

[dave321]

I tried it as well this afternoon, but I just mixed it loosely. You are right about it not producing lots of smoke in that state.

 

must be quite noxious and choking with the sulphur dioxide present

 

dave

[PoorBoy]

What about substituting KPerc for the KChlorate? Or a nitrate sodium potassium or barium? Im still refering to WSM's above formula. I like the way that formula reads but I wont do anything mumbles wouldnt do. any ideas on changing the oxidizer and how the quantity of new oxidizer will need to be adjusted to keep same balance?

[Potassiumchlorate]

must be quite noxious and choking with the sulphur dioxide present

 

dave

 

Yes, it's better not to stand near it.

[foxfyre841]

If you don't mind I'ld like to necro this thread to ask if the lower temp potassium chlorate oxidiser can be effectively used as a replacement for KNO3 in paraffin/sugar bombs (3:2:2 KNO3:Sugar:Paraffin). With the lowered temperature, will the paraffin sublimate correctly? If not, can the temperature be boosted with adjustments to the ratio or by addition of something else (airfloat, milled goex, etc).

 

Thanks!

[Seymour]

When it is said that Potassium chlorate is used in smokes with low temperature requirements, that is because it is capable of sustaining a reaction at such temperatures that most other oxidisers would go out. That is not to say that it is always a low temperature oxidiser, many compositions with KClO3 burn very hot. For examples look at Potassium chlorate based colour formulas, which there are many. For the colour emission to occur you need flame temperatures between one and two thousand deg C, and hotter is not unheard of.

 

It just so happens that lactose, which is a very cool fuel alrealy, actually burns when you mix it with KClO3 and a large excess of lactose to cool it further, so that it is possible to have it burn at only a few hundred degrees. Sucrose buns hotter, and while with some tweaking I expect it to be possible to get a similar effect to the true KNO3 formula, I really don't see any benefit from using KClO3. On the contrary, there are a few good reasons to stick with KNO3.

 

A commonly referenced (though I admit to having not observed it) demonstration of the sensitivity of Potassium chlorate is to put a little bit of it with sugar on a hard surface and crush and grind it with a spoon or suchlike, causing it to ignire alarmingly easily. While this is admitedly more rough treatment than you should ever be putting it through, you can bash Potassium nitrate, Sugar and Parrafin around all day and it won't light. The safety advantages to Potassium nitrate are subastantial, and since you only want white smoke, there is no need for KClO3.

 

While I do not believe it is usual to melt cast the parrafin version of the sugar smoke, like it is with unwaxed candy, I think it's worthwhile so strongly advise against treating Potassium nitrate and chlorate the same when it comes to melt casting just in case.

[AirCowPeacock]

I would certainly never melt cast any chlorate containing composition, even if the chlorate content is say less than 10% by weight. The decomp temperature of chlorate is really low, and I imagaine it would create a mixture more sensitive to shock and friction as tempreture increases.

[bob]

I like the potassium nitrate suger and wax mix but when I tried to make it into stars it did almost nothing I had to put a torch to it for at least 3 mins before it would light and then it just burnt with a blue flame for a few seconds and then whent out again

does it normaly do this?

but in a pop can it does wonders

bob

[Mumbles]

In my experience that is not normal behavior, though the sugar smokes can be more temperamental. These smoke mixtures are generally relatively slow burning, and function best with a minimum amount of free oxygen around. If they're actually producing a flame less smoke is given off than if it's sort of smouldering.

 

If you're interested in smoke stars made in a more traditional manner, I'd suggest checking out F.A.S.T. by Shimizu. There is a nice coverage of it there. For white smoke stars, you might have better luck with formulas utilizing sulfur and charcoal as the fuel instead of sugar.

[Short5]

I have made smoke stars from sorbitol and kno3. Mix 65 parts kno3 to 35 parts sorbitol with an additional 2% iron oxide. Heat an electric skillet to 250F and pour the comp in. Once it starts to melt stir until it's all melted. Turn the heat off and with leather gloved hands take a bit of fuel and make a ball. Place your ball between two 5/16" dowels and start to roll it into a pencil sized roll using a board. You can sprinkle a little BP on at the end and it will stick as a prime. let cool and cut into star sized pieces. Letting the fuel sit for a day in a sealed container with a desicant will "cure" it and make it hard. Keep it sealed because it will get sticky from moisture in the air.