Exploding Targets

[Blackthumb]

Just about have a target that will function well and consistently with an ordinary .22 LR round...will share in the HE section when ready...will be adding the containers for that size to my website when available.

[Delerius]

Looking at a couple different formulas and would I be correct that AN would desensitize Potassium Perchlorate flash? Edited December 8, 2011 by Delerius

[NightHawkInLight]

Looking at a couple different formulas and would I be correct that AN would desensitize Potassium Perchlorate flash?

 

In that it would make the target wet perhaps...Otherwise I doubt it.

[Delerius]

Did a little testing this past weekend with AN in prill form with KClO4 / AL and the results were disappointing although AN crushed / KClO4 / AL does make an interesting sparkler. I also found out that wax coated bullets (Blazer .22's) will not even trigger 70/30 KClO4 / AL whereas Winchester hollow points did.

Learning as I go here, my thought was if you had (A=KClO4 / AL) in one container and it could detonate (B=AN / AL) in another container, why have them in separate containers if they are compatible. As I mentioned earlier the mix failed regardless of percentage of when ( .B was added to (A). Would it be because it was fuel rich? My container size only held 15 grams and was wondering if that could be an issue as well... My thought was if I could get a formula of KClO4 / AL to work with AN then I would find a substitute for KClO4. As for AN, I mostly used it in prill since my thought was that they are coated to keep the moisture out. Would I be better crushing the AN then drying it?

Edited December 13, 2011 by Delerius

[NightHawkInLight]

There's a flaw in your plan, kclo4/al is not nearly powerful enough to act as a primary for an/al.

[gregkdc1]

I don't know how truthful this is but this guy claims to be doing almost exactly what you are saying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnpAUZsweEc . I question the validity of it because AN from cold packs is almost always damp and of low quality. Not to mention most of my targets that were made with fertilizer grade prill only partially detonated with a .30-06 round, sometimes you would get one that worked. After I dried and powdered the AN in a blender my targets work perfectly almost every time with a .30-06. I use the 95-5 ratio with 350 mesh bright flake aluminum. I have wanted to try some 22 sensitive targets as well but I am hesitant to make traditional flash in large quantities. I think next I will try some copper thermite for a .22 sensitive target.

 

 

[pyrojig]

I don't know how truthful this is but this guy claims to be doing almost exactly what you are saying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnpAUZsweEc . I question the validity of it because AN from cold packs is almost always damp and of low quality. Not to mention most of my targets that were made with fertilizer grade prill only partially detonated with a .30-06 round, sometimes you would get one that worked. After I dried and powdered the AN in a blender my targets work perfectly almost every time with a .30-06. I use the 95-5 ratio with 350 mesh bright flake aluminum. I have wanted to try some 22 sensitive targets as well but I am hesitant to make traditional flash in large quantities. I think next I will try some copper thermite for a .22 sensitive target.

 

 

Thermite targets are a blast for sure. Kind of a unique binary concept. Also flash targets dont need as much to make about the same noise. I think pound for pound the flash may put off a louder bang. I just believe it is cost, as well as a sensitivity issue that makes flash not the target of choice on the market.

Edited December 14, 2011 by pyrojig

[dan999ification]

please move or delete this post if it is not appropriate here.

regarding the sensitivity of cuo/al: what is the least amount of energy required to initiate a small target upon impact, i know it is a sensitive comp but dont know "how sensitive", from what ive seen it can be initiated with .22lr rounds that are 30-40 grains doing 1080-1600 fps delivering 104-191 ftlb, but can you get a reaction as low as 300fps with say 40ftlb without making it too sensitive to handle or using very fine mesh metal? i saw some which had been on a car journey for 8 hrs and was obviously not that sensitive but worked well with .22 ammo

would make for some nice [ small [5g] ] airgun targets.

its just curiosity and i dont want to "theres only one way to find out" this one

 

dan.

 

 

[pyrojig]

please move or delete this post if it is not appropriate here.

regarding the sensitivity of cuo/al: what is the least amount of energy required to initiate a small target upon impact, i know it is a sensitive comp but dont know "how sensitive", from what ive seen it can be initiated with .22lr rounds that are 30-40 grains doing 1080-1600 fps delivering 104-191 ftlb, but can you get a reaction as low as 300fps with say 40ftlb without making it too sensitive to handle or using very fine mesh metal? i saw some which had been on a car journey for 8 hrs and was obviously not that sensitive but worked well with .22 ammo

would make for some nice [ small [5g] ] airgun targets.

its just curiosity and i dont want to "theres only one way to find out" this one

 

dan.

 

 

 

I know that a hammer blow will set it off ( as many more things less sensitive) . I dont think a low powered pellet rifle will work. Maybe a high powered one... but I doubt it can create the impact energy needed to initiate it.. It is not a primary explosive( "for sensitivity comparison").. as far as impact goes. I would strongly suggest not breathing the smoke from these targets... Im sure it wouldnt be the best thing for your health.

[gregkdc1]

I was curios about the sensitivity of Co/Al myself, that is one of the reasons I mentioned it to see if anyone would chime in with experience. I wasn’t able to get mine to go off with a hammer on concrete, and was able to get some AP/silicone rocket fuel to pop in the same way. I figured it most be a little less sensitive than something I was already working with. Does anybody know how sensitive Co/Al is too static? Also it appears that Al mesh size and shape appears to influence the burn rate any pointers on this? I have been using the bright flake aluminum and when ignited the thermite burns in a flash and makes a soft puff sound.

 

 

[pyrojig]

I was curios about the sensitivity of Co/Al myself, that is one of the reasons I mentioned it to see if anyone would chime in with experience. I wasn't able to get mine to go off with a hammer on concrete, and was able to get some AP/silicone rocket fuel to pop in the same way. I figured it most be a little less sensitive than something I was already working with. Does anybody know how sensitive Co/Al is too static? Also it appears that Al mesh size and shape appears to influence the burn rate any pointers on this? I have been using the bright flake aluminum and when ignited the thermite burns in a flash and makes a soft puff sound.

 

 

Sounds right. A puff is the sound... The concrete is a poor surface to do a impact test. Metal to metal is key. Also a match head size bit of the thermite wrapped in a small amount of foil will keep it in one spot. Static is another animal ... I believe any ultra find flammable material for the most part ( with conductive metals in it) is subject to static.

[Delerius]

Well I have tried everything but potassium chlorate and nothing works. I have tried Potassium Perchlorate and AL... no go... I tried adding some Antimony Trisulfide... no go... tried Antimony Trisulfide and Potassium Perchlorate... no go... tried Ammonium Prechlorate with AN and AL... nope... Ammonium Prechlorate and AL... nothing... I've also tried Potassium Nitrate mixes and Sodium Nitrate mixes and nothing. I have not tried adding any Magnesium/Aluminum or Sulfur to any of the mixes although at this point I don't really seeing it being a benefit. I have tried adding some Titanium Sponge to some of the mixes which did nothing as well.

 

My thought is now to try potassium chlorate / AL but what would you all recommend to use as a buffer to desensitize the mix a little or would I better off trying to sensitize Potassium Perchlorate some more?

 

I have little 10 gram containers where I have tried placing 10 grams of Kclo3 in one container and 10 grams of AL in other container which I then duct taped the two containers together. Shooting at the containers I was hoping for an reaction but I got none.

 

As for adding AN to most of the mixes was a waste as all it does is slow down the mix. I did find out that AN and Ammonium Perchlorate work well together with AL in a flame test but have not been able to get it to detonate.

[pyrojig]

This is very surprising..... are you shooting it with a bb gun, or throwing rocks at it...????

I have always had no prob getting even reg. 70/30 to go everytime with a 22. I think its is time you take a moment and DO SOME READING.. Im not poking at you or making fun .... but it sounds like your just randomly throwing stuff together w/o understanding the critical concepts behind them. This will lead to a waste of chems and time , as well as putting your self in danger of a mix that has incompatibilities. Mostly sounds like your kclo3 or kclo4 is not fine enough.

 

Well I have tried everything but potassium chlorate and nothing works. I have tried Potassium Perchlorate and AL... no go... I tried adding some Antimony Trisulfide... no go... tried Antimony Trisulfide and Potassium Perchlorate... no go... tried Ammonium Prechlorate with AN and AL... nope... Ammonium Prechlorate and AL... nothing... I've also tried Potassium Nitrate mixes and Sodium Nitrate mixes and nothing. I have not tried adding any Magnesium/Aluminum or Sulfur to any of the mixes although at this point I don't really seeing it being a benefit. I have tried adding some Titanium Sponge to some of the mixes which did nothing as well.

 

My thought is now to try potassium chlorate / AL but what would you all recommend to use as a buffer to desensitize the mix a little or would I better off trying to sensitize Potassium Perchlorate some more?

 

I have little 10 gram containers where I have tried placing 10 grams of Kclo3 in one container and 10 grams of AL in other container which I then duct taped the two containers together. Shooting at the containers I was hoping for an reaction but I got none.

 

As for adding AN to most of the mixes was a waste as all it does is slow down the mix. I did find out that AN and Ammonium Perchlorate work well together with AL in a flame test but have not been able to get it to detonate.

[Delerius]

This is very surprising..... are you shooting it with a bb gun, or throwing rocks at it...????

I have always had no prob getting even reg. 70/30 to go everytime with a 22. I think its is time you take a moment and DO SOME READING.. Im not poking at you or making fun .... but it sounds like your just randomly throwing stuff together w/o understanding the critical concepts behind them. This will lead to a waste of chems and time , as well as putting your self in danger of a mix that has incompatibilities. Mostly sounds like your kclo3 or kclo4 is not fine enough.

 

 

 

Believe me... I have read on the internet every single piece of info on binary targets that I can get my hands on. As for the mixes, the combination of items and percentages are endless so I do keep a log of what works and what doesn't. The one thing I haven't been doing is making my mix as "fine" as possible which definitely can be where my problem is so I do appreciate that you pointed that out.

[dan999ification]

I know that a hammer blow will set it off ( as many more things less sensitive) . I dont think a low powered pellet rifle will work. Maybe a high powered one... but I doubt it can create the impact energy needed to initiate it.. It is not a primary explosive( "for sensitivity comparison").. as far as impact goes. I would strongly suggest not breathing the smoke from these targets... Im sure it wouldnt be the best thing for your health.

 

i can hit it with well over 1000ftlb but want to know the least amount of energy required for peace of mind when handling it [i diapered it] if ever i make it again. its only my brother quite likes thermite/s and is always nagging me, if i show him anything i want to know were safe i know the risks with the flash like behaviour and the smoke just not sure on the handling.

 

dan.

[Delerius]

I decided to start out today with using CCI Stingers which are suppose to be the fastest 22.

 

CCI Stinger trials

 

Targets consist of 10 grams in a snap lid container duct taped to a 2x4

1st target = 7 KCIO4, 1.5 Dark AL and 1.5 Magnesium/Aluminum = success with one shot (very energetic, made a hole in 2x4)

2nd target = 3.5 AN, 3.5 NH4ClO4 ground together, 1.5 Dark AL and 1.5 Magnesium/Aluminum = failed with two shots

3rd target = 7 KCIO4, 3 Dark AL = success although it took two shots to set off the mix (very energetic, split 2x4 in half)

4th target = 7.5 NH4ClO4, 2.5 Dark AL, 1 Titanium Sponge = success with one shot (less energetic than target #1 with less report as well)

5th target = 7.5 NH4ClO4, 2.5 Dark AL, 1 Titanium Sponge = success although there was a slight report, the mix turned into a sparkler)

6th target = 7 NH4ClO4, 2.5 Dark AL, .5 Antimony Trisulfide Dark Pyro = Failed although I did get a little smoke

7th target = 6 NH4ClO4, 3 Dark AL, 1 Titanium Sponge = Success (very little report with a slow fountain effect)

8th target = 6 NH4ClO4, 1 KCIO4, 2 Dark AL, 1 Titanium Sponge = Failed although I did get a little smoke

9th target = 6 KCIO4, 4 Dark AL = success (not very energetic but very smokey)

10th target = 6 KCIO4, 1 AN (Prill), 3 Dark AL and 1 Titanium Sponge = success and so far my favorite (very energetic, with good report)

 

It seems that Titanium Sponge is needed with NH4ClO4 to initiate any kind of reaction

 

Standard 22 trials

 

1st target = 7.5 NH4ClO4, 2.5 Dark AL, 1 Titanium Sponge = Failed

2nd target = 6 KCIO4, 1 AN (Prill), 3 Dark AL and 1 Titanium Sponge = success and so far my favorite (very energetic, with good report)

 

So far for me my favorite is 6 KCIO4, 1 AN, 3 Dark AL and 1 Titanium Sponge. It's sensitive but not too sensitive. The CCI Stinger has no issues in setting off this mix and with the right "standard" 22 such as the Winchester 333 round box (hollow point bullets), the mix will go off as well. I did try setting it off with standard Remington 22 round and it failed. I'm not sure if the reason it failed was because it was a round nose or if the velocity wasn't up to par. I feel comfortable with KCIO4 although I will feel even more so once I do a "hammer" test on the mix. Next time I get out I'll see if I can add another 1 AN and subtract 1 KCIO4 which I will let you all know the results.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Delerius

[Blackthumb]

container type and size of trials?

 

 

 

 

 

I decided to start out today with using CCI Stingers which are suppose to be the fastest 22.

 

CCI Stinger trials

 

Targets consist of 10 grams in a snap lid container duct taped to a 2x4

1st target = 7 KCIO4, 1.5 Dark AL and 1.5 Magnesium/Aluminum = success with one shot (very energetic, made a hole in 2x4)

2nd target = 3.5 AN, 3.5 NH4ClO4 ground together, 1.5 Dark AL and 1.5 Magnesium/Aluminum = failed with two shots

3rd target = 7 KCIO4, 3 Dark AL = success with two shots (very energetic, split 2x4 in half)

4th target = 7.5 NH4ClO4, 2.5 Dark AL, 1 Titanium Sponge = success with one shot (less energetic than target #1 with less report as well)

5th target = 7.5 NH4ClO4, 2.5 Dark AL, 1 Titanium Sponge = success although there was a slight report, the mix turned into a sparkler)

6th target = 7 NH4ClO4, 2.5 Dark AL, .5 Antimony Trisulfide Dark Pyro = Failed although I did get a little smoke

 

Standard 22 trials

 

1st target = 7.5 NH4ClO4, 2.5 Dark AL, 1 Titanium Sponge = Failed

[Delerius]

container type and size of trials?

 

 

 

The container looks like the one on the far right (smallest one) which is a 1/4 ounce where I can get just about 11 grams in the container. With most of the formulas I made a 10 or 11 gram batches. The numbers in the formula above represent number of grams.

 

Just a word of warning to anyone interested in trying any of the above formulas... never use a container that has a screw on lid.

[RogueSwimmer]

 

Slightly off topic, but related. How is the energetics/HE section in this forum? I was told by a friend about it and wanted to see for myself. I hope aperch has been discussed on there, since this is a rocketry forum... I'm looking for high VOD mix based on that. With all kewls using aluminzed kinepak, no much to explore with AN comps.

Edited January 19, 2012 by RogueSwimmer

[NightHawkInLight]

Slightly off topic, but related. How is the energetics/HE section in this forum? I was told by a friend about it and wanted to see for myself. I hope aperch has been discussed on there, since this is a rocketry forum... I'm looking for high VOD mix based on that. With all kewls using aluminzed kinepak, no much to explore with AN comps.

 

The moderators will have to speak for themselves about letting you in, but I will at least speak for myself. You need to understand up front that this is not an explosives forum. It is a pyrotechnic arts forum that just happens to have a section for the discussion of explosives. If your primary interest in coming here is not to learn about the artistic and safe creation of fireworks then please go elsewhere.

[RogueSwimmer]

You can never be good at everything. That's why you specialize. I specialize in HE, so I can give some ideas to the forum and take some back to the energetics forums where I usually hang out. I used to like making supersonic Rcandy rocket motors and what not, but never go a thrill from basic fireworks. After you detonate something, fireworks seem a bit less exciting and expensive. High explosives are the most fun for the buck.

 

So, no, I am not here to learn about pyrotechnics. I am here to contribute and exchange few ideas on HE.Probably, mostly contribute, because I rarely find innovative stuff on most remaining energetics boards.

 

Ask not what your forum can do for you, but what you can do for your forum.

Edited January 19, 2012 by RogueSwimmer

[NightHawkInLight]

You can never be good at everything. That's why you specialize. I specialize in HE, so I can give some ideas to the forum and take some back to the energetics forums where I usually hang out. I used to like making supersonic Rcandy rocket motors and what not, but never go a thrill from basic fireworks. After you detonate something, fireworks seem a bit less exciting and expensive. High explosives are the most fun for the buck.

 

So, no, I am not here to learn about pyrotechnics. I am here to contribute and exchange few ideas on HE.Probably, mostly contribute, because I rarely find innovative stuff on most remaining energetics boards.

 

Ask not what your forum can do for you, but what you can do for your forum.

 

This is not an explosives forum, and it is not related in the slightest to what you are interested in. As someone who has spent my entire adult life working to create a positive public appeal to the extremely fine art of building fireworks, the thing I hate the most is being associated to someone who cares for nothing besides the cheap thrill of watching something blow up. That sure sounds a lot like you. If you want to learn about a thousand year old art, great. If all you care about is a big bang, look elsewhere.

[RogueSwimmer]

Really? It seems like only most "experienced" people are allowed to HE section here. Well, I'm about as experienced as they come. High energetics is more of an art than the regular pyrotechnics and it has 0 tolerance for mistakes.

 

"Cheap thrill of watching something blow up".....no, that's rednecks who shoot exploding targets. I like experimenting with compositions to see how to optimize performance. Besides that, there is initiation, which is a whole new art in itself.

 

You're giving a lecture to someone you are not qualified to give a lecture to. Now, where are these mods who are supposed to invite me to the forum?

[gelamex]

If I may add my tuppence worth. I too have done a lot of work with high energy material, mostly with HM Forces. Whilst working with high energy materials is incredibly interesting, especially the cutting edge research, it also comes with problems. The biggest of these is the information getting into the hands of those who wish us harm. Then there is the issue of youngsters experimenting without the true knowledge of what they are playing with. For me, coming onto this forum has been about learning a skill and art that has been developing for a long time. The application of chemistry is a little different to what I am used to, therefore I class myself as a student learning from those who know a great deal more about this than I do. The end result is the ability to paint the sky and entertain others without endangering anyone.

[californiapyro]

You can never be good at everything. That's why you specialize. I specialize in HE, so I can give some ideas to the forum and take some back to the energetics forums where I usually hang out. I used to like making supersonic Rcandy rocket motors and what not, but never go a thrill from basic fireworks. After you detonate something, fireworks seem a bit less exciting and expensive. High explosives are the most fun for the buck.

 

So, no, I am not here to learn about pyrotechnics. I am here to contribute and exchange few ideas on HE.Probably, mostly contribute, because I rarely find innovative stuff on most remaining energetics boards.

 

Ask not what your forum can do for you, but what you can do for your forum.

 

1. fireworks is WAY more of an art form than H.E. will ever be

2. NHIL is one of the most experienced guys out there, you should probably take his advice

3. the mods aren't going to come find you and beg you to share your vast H.E. knowledge, you have to ask mumbles or thesidewinder for access (which I highly doubt they will give you)

 

that is my 2 cents (or 3 for that matter)