Dragon Eggs (Dragon Flowers)

[Niladmirari]

Composition:

Pb3O4 - 81,8%

MgAl (200-250 mesh) - 9,1%

CuO - 9,1%

nitrocellulose - 8% (over 100%)

Size of the star 5 mm.

 

Edited March 1, 2014 by Niladmirari

[Ubehage]

How can you prime DE, without using Potassium Dichromate, or is that even possible?

Dichromate is not availalable for me.

[asdercks]

How can you prime DE, without using Potassium Dichromate, or is that even possible?

Dichromate is not availalable for me.

try black powder with silicon powder it works for me

[spitfire]

Very interesting topic. We need to figure out ways to make dense solid cores -even in size as much as possible- and not go through a lot of fuss doing so. The DE i'm making now is just granulated, and yes, uneven in size and porous. It needs improvement. They work great though for my needs so far, but it ain't the real ''flowering effect'' we tend to see in commercial Chinese fireworks. We got work to do!

[schroedinger]

To get rid of the porous structure you could always roll 'em or get a star plate like 3mm and press then or also cut 'em.

[Mumbles]

Very interesting topic. We need to figure out ways to make dense solid cores -even in size as much as possible- and not go through a lot of fuss doing so. The DE i'm making now is just granulated, and yes, uneven in size and porous. It needs improvement. They work great though for my needs so far, but it ain't the real ''flowering effect'' we tend to see in commercial Chinese fireworks. We got work to do!

 

 

The "flowering" effect is not a simple dragon egg. A slaggy delay composition is rolled over the top. This is what makes the sparks and flower type of effect. The dragon egg simply acts as the burst in a way.

[spitfire]

Got that some posts ago Mumbles, the delay won't be the problem for most of us. Even if we have to start from ground zero we have a lot of ways: Phlegmatized glitter with added Ti or FeTi, the usual delay with additives, Shimizu's dark delay or transition comp for color changing stars... tweak and test, try tweak and test again. That's what i ment. Getting the core eggs right is a different story though. That's all about hardware. Easy in theory, but hard in practice. In theory on a forum we are all masters, but in practice... doubt it.

[spitfire]

I've been pondering... the delay we use for DE can also be used for plain color micro stars and use them in matrix comets or fountains. My goal is fountains, but my first try turned up pretty bad. There seems to be a big difference between corning NC based compositions or Dextrin based compositions. Again, i get stuck at the point of making micro stars even in size... sigh.

I used a simple Mg/Al based red composition and corned it like i did with the dragon eggs. The result was as i feared, 80% too small. I proceeded (on the way anyway) and coated it with this delay composition:

 

BP...................75

parlon.............12,5

FeOx...............8

Red Gum........5

Dextrin............4

 

There was some good result though, too bad it only was for 10% of the total batch.... a waste of perchlorate i guess. I have to think this over again. My hardware isn't sufficient or i am missing some clue. I guess for the latter.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I'm not totally sure what problem you are having? Making microstars? Have you tried cutting them? If you are granulating and getting a size you don't want, have you tried changing the screen size?

 

Dragon eggs don't really get a delay from what you put on them. The prime is fairly fast so it gets the entire surface lit at once. The DE work by having a delay phase and then a flash/explosion phase, similar to a strobe except it destroys itself.

 

Also, if you get a size you don't want it shouldn't be a waste. You just add more solvent, acetone for DE, let it get soft again and reprocess. There should be essentially no lost material. I usually add the stuff that is the wrong size to the next batch and process both new and old. But if you mess up, just add acetone and work the whole batch over until you are happy.

 

What other problems are you having?

[spitfire]

Thanks for your answer FlaMtnBkr, i'll try to answer as best as i can. Yes, i have tried cutting them and it works great if you only need small amounts and have lots of spare time doing so. I am looking for a more efficient way. I tried 3 different screens, and only one came close. I should try to find other screens to test, but that doesn't happen over night.

 

Last few weeks i tried Bismuth based DE for the first time, and to my surprise they don't have any delay from themselves at all. Take a small grain and put a torch to it... BANG instantly. No delay at all. The bang is great though!

 

I do not waste any of it, anything that is too small is simply used again in the next batch.

 

I have some (200g) testbatch primed ready and made some items with it to test the delay, but i didn't have time to do so yet.

[FlaMtnBkr]

Yes cutting them small is a pain but does produce nice eggs.

 

I also make bismuth eggs and have tried the trioxide and subcarbonate. I haven't had an immediate ignition but I suppose you could get pretty close to immediate with the right mesh MgAl. Too fine and each piece will make many small pops that aren't real loud. Too coarse and the delay is long and can get to where they glow for a few seconds and never pop.

 

What formula are you using? Perhaps if you are using one with an oxidizer that could also speed things up? I've seen a few formulas that do but haven't tried them.

 

It sounds like you are doing everything right though. It will probably just take time and experimenting to figure out what works well for you. I know Lloyd S. has mentioned granulating and then placing on the screen again while damp and use a hand to roll the eggs around and press through the screen to size them. I'm sure there is some technique but I haven't tried it to see how difficult it is. I know some people have also been successful rolling them. I think a lot of the Chinese eggs are rolled.

[enanthate]

Very interesting thread.

 

Yes, I also believe the chinese DE are rolled (many of them anyway). Got a couple of hundreds here from commercial fireworks, they're about 1,5mm size and perfectly round. Produces one single, great bang!

 

Spitfire, do you mind sharing your bismuth-comp? I only have bismuth, and my earlier issues have been that they pop and produce many small crackles. Not a very interesting effect, looks extremely unprofessional in the air. Please share yours if you don't mind, sounds like you're on to something!

Also, what mesh is the MgAl/etc you used?

 

For what it's worth, here's the comps I've been using:

 

 

Bismuth trioxide Dragon eggs

Bismuth trioxide 75

Magnalium (-200 mesh) 15

opper (II) oxide (black) 10

Aluminium (atomized, -200 mesh) +5

Nitrocellulose lacquer 10%

 

Dragon eggs Prime

Potassium perchlorate 70

Magnalium (granular, -200 mesh) 20

Red gum 10

 

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20101221174814/http://pyroguide.com/index.php?title=Category:Compositions

Great website.

Edited September 27, 2014 by enanthate

[schroedinger]

Enanthate try to use -80 mesh

[FlaMtnBkr]

I like this formula:

 

37.5 bismuth trioxide

37.5 black copper oxide

25 MgAl (200 mesh)

 

Bound with lots of NC lacquer. Add enough to make a nice batter, then add about 50% more and let it dry to the point you want it. FYI, I didn't like the above formula. It didn't work as well and used twice as much of the expensive bismuth.

 

 

If a single egg is rapidly popping multiple times, your MgAl is too fine. You can use a coarser material or try replacing part of the MgAl with more coarse. It is common to have to tune the eggs for your chemicals. If many rapid pops, it's too fine, and if it smolders without popping it's too coarse. This is assuming the other chemicals are sufficiently fine. I've had bismuth that was coarse and it caused problems.

[enanthate]

The problem is that I only have #250, and then #10-100. No in-between there, but will give your formula a shot! Thanks.

 

Now that you mention it I can't actually remember grinding my bismuth, maybe that was a part of the problem. Will look into it soon, as I'm getting more chems the coming days.

Will get back to it ASAP.

[Ubehage]

If a single egg is rapidly popping multiple times, your MgAl is too fine. You can use a coarser material or try replacing part of the MgAl with more coarse. It is common to have to tune the eggs for your chemicals. If many rapid pops, it's too fine, and if it smolders without popping it's too coarse. This is assuming the other chemicals are sufficiently fine. I've had bismuth that was coarse and it caused problems.

Interesting, thank you.

Now, may I ask, how would you grind your Bismuth (if needed)?

I don't know the size of my Bismuth, I still haven't gotten all the chemicals needed to start "playing".

 

I was thinking, maybe in a ballmill. But then again, how to clean that ballmill completely after use? I have bad experiences with cleaning ballmills for metals; I ended up throwing out 2 of them. And now I hold on dearly to my last 2, and I'd prefer not to make anything but BP-ingredients in them.

[enanthate]

Get a coffee-grinder. A cheap, quick and easy way to grind your ingredients down to a decent size (not airfloat, but close).

[FlaMtnBkr]

If the bismuth was sold for fireworks it is probably sufficiently fine. My coarse stuff was meant for pottery glaze.

 

MgAl is quite brittle and will break up fairly easy. You can ball mill it and it will turn to a very fine particle size in a fairly short amount of time. If you want to try messing with reducing size make sure to be careful and read about pyrophoric metals.

 

What I would try is using something like 90% 250 mesh and 10% of the coarse. Maybe even try to screen out the really big pieces as they might not contribute much to the reaction. Start with small batches until you get a ratio that works. Of course, if you don't have much of the metal it might just be easier to get the right size. 200 mesh has worked well for me and is frequently called for.

 

Edit: didn't see this last page. I tried using a mortar and pestle and it didn't work with the bismuth very well. It seemed to smear and stick to everything. It would probably make a mess of a ball mill. A blade mill would probably work better as mentioned.

Edited September 30, 2014 by FlaMtnBkr

[enanthate]

The problem is that I can't (no, I really can't) get my hands on anything coarser than #250, except the 10-100. Will try your advice on mixing the two though, hopefully this works.

Will not put it in my ball mill as I only got one, and won't ever put any kinds of metals in there.

 

Thanks for the advices, feeling confident enough to (hopefully) figure it out with some experimenting at this point.

[Ubehage]

MgAl is quite brittle and will break up fairly easy. You can ball mill it and it will turn to a very fine particle size in a fairly short amount of time. If you want to try messing with reducing size make sure to be careful and read about pyrophoric metals.

 

This is propably the most important thing I have learned here. Thank you

[FlaMtnBkr]

Chunks of MgAl will break apart with a hammer.

 

Make sure to read up on milling metals. When new surface is exposed and is exposed to an oxygen rich atmosphere it will rapidly oxidize the new surface. This releases heat and will start a fire which can be very fierce. If you decide to reduce particle size, assume that you WILL have an accident and take every precaution possible so you won't get hurt when it does. Opening up the milling jar for the first time is usually the most dangerous part, long after you have shut off your remotely controlled mill. If you only need small amounts, a blade mill might work at the end of an extension cord.

 

But please read up if thinking about doing this!

[FlaMtnBkr]

Also, you can make extra mill jars and get some dedicated media. If you end up milling a lot of something it can be easier to get a dedicated jar instead of cleaning a few times each time you mill.

 

But you are right not wanting to contaminate your mill.

[spitfire]

Very interesting thread.

 

Yes, I also believe the chinese DE are rolled (many of them anyway). Got a couple of hundreds here from commercial fireworks, they're about 1,5mm size and perfectly round. Produces one single, great bang!

 

Spitfire, do you mind sharing your bismuth-comp? I only have bismuth, and my earlier issues have been that they pop and produce many small crackles. Not a very interesting effect, looks extremely unprofessional in the air. Please share yours if you don't mind, sounds like you're on to something!

Also, what mesh is the MgAl/etc you used?

 

For what it's worth, here's the comps I've been using:

 

 

Bismuth trioxide Dragon eggs

Bismuth trioxide 75

Magnalium (-200 mesh) 15

opper (II) oxide (black) 10

Aluminium (atomized, -200 mesh) +5

Nitrocellulose lacquer 10%

 

 

 

Wow have been offline for a few days, but here's my reply anyway... I use this same formula too. MgAl is 150 - 200 mesh. Meanwhile i found a way to get the grains less porous. After drying i sieve them to get the small material out, the bigger ones are hand-rolled in a bowl with another layer of material. This produces more dense grains. I should try coarser MgAl too, sound promising!

[spitfire]

 

I have some (200g) testbatch primed ready and made some items with it to test the delay, but i didn't have time to do so yet.

Update. I tested a 1'' fountain and a single shot bombette (also 1''). The fountain had unprimed crackling, the bombette had primed crackling. The fountain functioned good lots of crackles but as mentioned in the thread, many small crackles and no big pops. Still pretty nice for the kids though! The bombette functioned perfect, shot... tail effect... BOOMm.. small trails and pretty loud crackle! Very nice delay. Enough for my needs anyway. I am getting there step by step i guess!

[spitfire]

Yes another reply.. sorry. While working and pondering the method of making crackling microstars... an idea popped in my mind. As a kid i used to buy sparklers ''morning glory'' they burned in in three stages, red flare, gold with white flashes, white flare. The gold with white flashes caught my attention. What if i make white strobe composition, bind with NC, granulate, roll a little more to make them less porous, and prime?? Well, i did and it makes a great effect when mixed with a slow gold fountain comp. Also made a sparkler with it... perfect! Just made some 2'' rocket heading stuffed with it test soon. These small microstars strobe for roughly 2 - 5 times.