Incompatibilities

[Cookieman]

Hi guys, there are quite a few formula's that I have found to be dangerous and unstable. My question is why are they there in the first place? I mean, anyone who tries these formula's puts themselves at risk especially when safety is the number 1 priority. Even with the New Blue formula, one source says bind with 1% N/C and another says bind with Dextrin/water/Alc. Which is it? Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Sulfur react with water and air to form Sulfuric acid which intern reacts with the chlorate to form Chlorine dioxide a combustable and flammable gas? Here is a list of the formula's

 

Willow tree star

Source: "The Pyroguide" (a document found on internet)

Comments: Dangerous mixture since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.

Preparation: Bind with dextrin in water.

 

Potassium chlorate................................10

Potassium nitrate.................................5

Sulfur............................................1

Lampblack.........................................18

 

 

 

Orange star #1

Source: "The Pyroguide" (a document found on internet)

Comments: Dangerous mixture since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.

Preparation: Bind with alcohol.

 

Strontium nitrate.................................36

Sodium oxalate....................................8

Potassium chlorate................................5

Shellac powder....................................5

Sulfur............................................3

 

Purple star #2

Source: "The Pyroguide" (a document found on internet)

Comments: Dangerous mixture since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.

Preparation: Bind with dextrin in water. The ingredients must be very pure.

 

Potassium chlorate................................38

Strontium carbonate...............................18

Copper chloride...................................4

Lead chloride.....................................2

Sulfur............................................14

 

Purple star #1

Source: "The Pyroguide" (a document found on internet)

Comments: Dangerous mixture since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.

Preparation: Bind with dextrin in water. The ingredients must be very pure.

 

Potassium chlorate................................36

Strontium sulfate.................................10

Copper sulfate....................................5

Lead chloride.....................................2

Charcoal..........................................2

Sulfur............................................12

 

Blue star #7

Source: "The Pyroguide" (a document found on internet)

Comments: This one is inferior to "Blue star 6". Dangerous mixture since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.

Preparation: Bind with dextrin in water.

 

Potassium chlorate................................12

Copper sulfate....................................6

Lead chloride.....................................1

Sulfur............................................4

 

Blue star #6

Source: "The Pyroguide" (a document found on internet)

Comments: Dangerous mixture since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.

Preparation: Bind with dextrin in water.

 

Potassium chlorate................................9

Copper Acetonarsenite.............................2

Mercurous chloride................................1

Sulfur............................................2

 

Red star #6

Source: "The pyroguide" (a document found on internet)

Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.

Preparation: Bind with shellac dissolved in ethanol.

 

Potassium chlorate................................9

Sulfur............................................2

Lampblack.........................................1

Strontium nitrate.................................9

 

 

 

[pyrochris732]

good question, i always wondered the same thing. I am a rookie so any stars I make always omit chlorate completely. I am happy with all the other compositions i can make with KCLO4 anyway.

 

One thing I always wondered is why isnt the danger factor of white stars consisting of KCLO4 and dark aluminum mentioned? Is it due to the water that makes it less sensitive? Is it due to the different ratio of each component? The binder?

[Twotails]

If im correct(and may not be fully) the reason behind the Sulfur /chlorate colored stars is simply that they produce a vibrent color, and when the formula was made(possably years ago) it was the best way to get color and what's "safe" has now been shown unsafe. Now theres many formula that still get a good color without the chlorate/sulfer formulas.

 

I can personaly say after trying a few chlorate color compositons, they are nice, and sometimes better than non-chorate/sulfer compositions, but heck, I stuck to 50g or less for the compositions, and burnt all materal after testing, theres simply better options out there IMO. the only real chlorate composition I like that i make often is Lancasters gold star composition(exept that it uses ALOT of lampblack).

[NightHawkInLight]

I would say it's probably not true on the point that they were once seen as safe, and have now been proven unsafe. I think what has really happened over recent years that has made chlorates and sulfur unacceptable is a large growth in the number of hobbyists. Likely because of the invention of the internet. People who built legitimate fireworks before then were mostly professionals or had learned in person directly from professionals.

 

Chlorate and sulfur mixtures are obviously more sensitive than other compositions to anyone who has used them. I'm fairly certain the old timers knew that very well. They also knew how to treat those compositions with the utmost respect, and how to assemble shells with those compositions *safely*. Nowadays, there are still a select few who use chlorate and sulfur compositions on special occasions. Overall, I would say it is better to never use such compositions until you are experienced enough to know when it is necessary to do so for a very refined effect. I am not there yet.

[Cookieman]

If im correct(and may not be fully) the reason behind the Sulfur /chlorate colored stars is simply that they produce a vibrent color, and when the formula was made(possably years ago) it was the best way to get color and what's "safe" has now been shown unsafe. Now theres many formula that still get a good color without the chlorate/sulfer formulas.

 

I can personaly say after trying a few chlorate color compositons, they are nice, and sometimes better than non-chorate/sulfer compositions, but heck, I stuck to 50g or less for the compositions, and burnt all materal after testing, theres simply better options out there IMO. the only real chlorate composition I like that i make often is Lancasters gold star composition(exept that it uses ALOT of lampblack).

 

 

Twotails, there are alot of good formula's out there from Weingart,bleser, and hardt that have chlorate's in them without the sulfur. And what I have seen from some of the video's out there they burn well with good vibrant colour. here is an example,

 

External link

[Peret]

History books like Brock's are full of sobering accounts of just how dangerous and sensitive these mixtures are, and the dreadful accidents that they caused. Chlorate and sulfur compositions were banned by law in England in the late 1800s. No other country seems to have gone so far as to make them illegal, but they've cost many lives around the world. The worst accident in the US, the Madison Square disaster of 1902 - 15 killed and 80 seriously injured - was caused by chlorate stars detonating in a steel mortar and fragmenting it, though it wouldn't have been so bad if the mortars were properly buried instead of free standing on the roadway.

 

I think the formulae are in the lists because they're listed in old books like Weingart, not because they're in common use today. I know there's a school of thought that the dangers are exaggerated and nothing to be afraid of. Personally I believe the stories and don't think it's worth the risk, not just of accidents while mixing but of spontaneous ignition in finished goods. The only chlorate I'm tempted to use is barium chlorate, which makes a green like no other. Unfortunately it's even more sensitive than potassium chlorate - I've heard that finished stars can ignite if you step on them.

[Twotails]

That lancaster star i use dosent have sulfur in it cookie (i was just refering to thats about the only chlorate star i make alot of, primed with a KP-based prime with NC)

[Cookieman]

That lancaster star i use dosent have sulfur in it cookie (i was just refering to thats about the only chlorate star i make alot of, primed with a KP-based prime with NC)

 

 

Chlorate stars are beautifull, they produce rich and vibrant colours, I will try some chlorate stars when I use up the stars I already have. I was talking about the formula's listed above that contain sulfur. And whats the story on the New Blue comp? do you bind with N/C or Dextrin/water/alcohol or either? If I'm not mistaken Ventsi bound some New Blue with dextrin/water and didn't turn out to well.

[Bonny]

IIRC correctly, KClO3 brought about a sort of "colour revolution" in fireworks, adding to the and improving the colours/effects of the past, which were mainly silver,white and charcoal types. KClO4 was essentailly non-existent when many formulae were devised in the past.

Also, in the old days, sulfur was very impure (and acidic) and is fingered as a significant factor in the chlorate/sulfur mix debate.

 

I have used KClO3 in the past as a noob, and probably shouldn't have. Until now I have stayed away, but will likely be using some in the near future as it is easily made and KClO4 is difficult to make or obtain for me.

[50AE]

I've heard that sulfur added to chlorate colored compositions improves the color. I have chlorate sulfur free compositions that perform very well, so no need to "pull the Devil's tail".

I doubt I will stop using chlorates. They make one of the best colors. What I hate though, is that people (mostly inexperienced) exagerate about their dangers.

 

The following compositions are the most dangerous.

 

Potassium chlorate................................36

Strontium sulfate.................................10

Copper sulfate....................................5

Lead chloride.....................................2

Charcoal..........................................2

Sulfur............................................12

 

Potassium chlorate................................12

Copper sulfate....................................6

Lead chloride.....................................1

Sulfur............................................4

 

Not because of the chlorate/sulfur combination, but because of the copper sulfate hygroscopicity and acidity. These can easily self ignite if let in the open for hours/days.

Chlorate/sulfur comps could be handled, with care though. It's recommended to add a stabilizer. It's true that in the past people didn't really care about sulfur and chlorate impurities.

 

Cookieman,

My dextrin washes my blue stars, from now on I bind them with SGRS and they do OK.

Edited July 22, 2010 by 50AE

[Ralph]

copper sulfate is Dangerous with metals (probably why there are no metals in the formula) I think if there is an issue with these (other than chlorate sulfur) it may be that copper chlorate could be formed if wet. Edited July 23, 2010 by Ralph

[Mumbles]

Copper chlorate is pretty much benign if wet. It is when you have the tetrammine salt that it is dangerous due to the water not being able to make it inert. Copper Sulfate has a lot of issues, which is why it is essentially useless in pyro as a composition component.

[50AE]

Don't forget that copper sulfate is a salt of a weak base and a strong acid, so it's acidic in solution. The acid is sulfuric.

[Mumbles]

You should probably try the same thing with perchlorate. You might be left with a surprise.

[dagabu]

Well, this man named Harry Gilliam is a real pyro-enthusiast,

 

Harry is a little more then an enthusiast, he owns Skylighter and is probably the premiere gateway drug pyro dealer of choice for n00bs since 1997.

[Mumbles]

I say you didn't hit it hard enough. Published data for impact sensitivities are remarkably close, within 5-10% of one another. You may want to try the same thing in a mortar and pestle. I've done this with ostensibly equal amounts (small scoop of each). Chlorate crackles with moderate hand pressure, where as perchlorate requires a little more. You should be able to get a feel for the comparable friction sensitivities, which is a little unsettling, but far more than is subjected by screening.

[dagabu]

I know the poop-storm is coming but diapering is for babies.

 

If you have to ask or comment, look up Mike Swisher and you will see the point in his explanation.

[Mumbles]

When making large shells containing bottom shots and salutes, there really is no other way to do so but to screen. I really hate to even call it screening. Sifting really is a better term. There is no rubbing, just gently shaking a screen to let gravity do the work. I personally do a combination of screening and diapering, but there really is no other way to safely make it.

[dagabu]

I concede, I shall call it sifting. There is no way to compact a tight bottom shot using diapered comp since it remains spongy. The consolidation allows for the comp to settle and compact very well.

 

I wont go into detail here since we want to be safe but Albert from Little Big Shots "sifts" all of his F by the hundred of pounds.

[dagabu]

HUH?!?

 

Sorry, I am at a loss for words...

[50AE]

Somebody hit me with a frying pan ?

 

 

.....

Anyone want to actually see how dangerous sulphur and potassium chlorate are incompatible without going to the hospital?

Well, this man named Harry Gilliam is a real pyro-enthusiast, and......

 

Chlorate stars are still primed with black powder... Sulfur and chlorate are still used for the match industry.

 

Some people will never learn. Some people think of potassium chlorate as the big no-no in pyrotechnics. Then they get the perchlorate and they think they are safe. Worse, some think they can ram perchlorate compositions, because they don't have chlorate in them.

 

 

I remember when I logged myself for the fist time in the pyrosociety forum. Then I created a topic about KClO3 colored stars. Guess what? Not only I didn't receive any good chlorate formula, but I was told to be not using chlorates, because they were "too dangerous and evil". I was even PMed from a guy who wanted to find me a perchlorate supplier and "save me from the mean chlorates". No shit.

 

So I totally quit this forum and I went to passfire. There, I was reborn to a new man! Not only I found many chlorate formulas, but I learned much more about them, especially from Mike Swisher, great guy!

Edited August 3, 2010 by 50AE

[optimus]

I remember when I logged myself for the fist time in the pyrosociety forum. Then I created a topic about KClO3 colored stars. Guess what? Not only I didn't receive any good chlorate formula, but I was told to be not using chlorates, because they were "too dangerous and evil". I was even PMed from a guy who wanted to find me a perchlorate supplier and "save me from the mean chlorates". No shit.

 

So I totally quit this forum and I went to passfire. There, I was reborn to a new man! Not only I found many chlorate formulas, but I learned much more about them, especially from Mike Swisher, great guy!

 

Did you not try the Forli purple? That's one of my favourite purples now.

 

Baechle has some lovely chlorate comps in his book - I even tried a 'true scarlet' with chlorate and sulphur and is was magical!

Edited August 3, 2010 by optimus

[50AE]

I use forli purple, it's my favourite one too. Cheap and beautiful!

Gonna take a look at Baechle. Thanks!

[Mumbles]

Is it possible they thought you were just starting out? Even I can't with a clear conscience suggest that people new to the hobby use them. Chlorates are nice, but because I use ammonium perchlorate strobes occasionally, I thoroughly exclude it from my shop.

[dagabu]

It is because I like falling leaves that I only use chlorate in my e-matches and it is not kept in the same shop as where I make fireworks.

 

Chlorate offers way too many issues for me to be using it and I suggest that unless you have experience with the methods that the Swish has, move on to other comps.

 

There is a reason it is not used in imports.