New Blue

[Ventsi]

This is a thread for the "New Blue" formula from Best of AFN II.

 

Name of composition: New Blue

Composition Type: Star

Creator: Not sure, found in BAFN2

Color/Effect: Blue Color Star

The Composition: (by weight) :

Ammonium perchlorate 82%

Copper Benzoate 18%

Bind with 1% nitrocellulose and make pumped or cut firework stars

Any Precautions/Incompatibilities: Contains Ammonium Perchlorate, avoid ALL contact with chlorates and nitrates(Sodium Nitrate might be an exception).

Perchlorate/Benzoate mixture, threat with caution. Open powder burns EXTREMELY fast.

Procedure/Preparation: Cut/Roll/Pump these burn VERY fast.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Ventsi

[Ventsi]

Let me start this off, I made a 10g experimental batch and as a loose powder the comp. burns fast with a bright blue. Might be worth a shot as a blue flash granulated.

Also, do you guys think this is a viable rocket fuel? I'm going to test a few bottle rockets as soon as I find my1/4" rammer.

[dagabu]

Hee, hee!

 

APCB!

 

Sorry, HP rocket humor

[Mumbles]

A slightly modified formula is what has been recomended to me as a blue flash.

 

Retrieved from Passfire on 3/10/08 from Eric Hunkins

 

 

The following formula with anhydrous copper benzoate makes a good blue flash, although not as brisant as other colored flashes.

 

Potassium Perchlorate 70

Copper Benzoate 25

Saran 5

[AdmiralDonSnider]

The opinions really seem to differ in case of copper benzoate.

 

I hear both, enthusiastic claims about a PG substitute finally discovered, and very skillfull people at rec.pyro saying that it´s not worth the hazzle at the same time.

[Ventsi]

Wow, this comp is awesome! Yesterday I pressed 5/8" of comp into a 3/4" long 1/2"ID tube. No core or anything, I didn't catch it on video or anything but it made a beautiful blue fountain which burned for 5-10sec with a bright, saturated blue flame about 2ft tall. I'm going to cut a experimental 50g batch of the stars today[bound with dextrin] and I might press a full 1/2" fountain with some Steel Brake turnings added to it.

[Ventsi]

I don't know who's F&$#@NG idea it was to say that binding this composition with dextrin and water would be okay, but they deserve a good smack. I was mixing a 50g trial batch and as I was wetting it I thought"Didn't I just take all this water out of the CB?" nevertheless I figured that since I remember reading it someplace reputable it should be fine. Well I wet the comp, made it into a ball and went to wash my hands and get some foil to flatten it on. No later than two minutes I came back and grabbed the ball, which was now hardened. I knew that the benzoate was holding onto a ton of water, but I figured it wasn't necessarily hygroscopic. So I crumbled the ball apart and now I'm wondering what to do. I might just dry it at F*200 and press some fountains. Gahhhh!

[Ventsi]

Alright, well, here we are, today I tested three things.

All three were using the composition as a base mix.

All three were pressed into1/4"IDx2"L tubes to a final charge of 1 3/4".

• The first is a tube with the plain mix, and a core extending 3/8" down, just for curiosity's sake. Sorry it was during the day. 1.8g comp, in there.
• Second is as standard as you can get, 2g of comp, open ended on both sides,very beautiful color.
• Third was an experimental fountain formula, looks like it worked pretty good. Normal comp +18parts Brake Turnings (40-100mesh). Very elegant and quiet. A 1/2" version is in theworks.

APCB Core

APCB Night Normal

APCBFe Fountain

Edited May 27, 2010 by Ventsi

[AdmiralDonSnider]

Nice videos, Ventsi.

 

All of the fountains used the new blue formula (82/18), not the one Mumbles gave (KP based), right?

[Mumbles]

You know, I never noticed it was potassium perchlorate based before. I always just assumed it was AP.

[Ventsi]

Nice videos, Ventsi.

 

All of the fountains used the new blue formula (82/18), not the one Mumbles gave (KP based), right?

 

Thank you, and yes they were, plus 3% dextrin which might have turned performance down.

 

 

Mumbles, I'll give your blue flash formula a go later today. I tried using the New Blue formula in flash pots and it just burned, kind of like green mix, which is very, very weird.

[Ventsi]

I've had this video lingering for a while so I'll post it here. Its a 1/2" ID nozzleless fountain using the New Blue comp +20 parts steel brake turnings. It was about 5 feet at its maximum. And I know it looks purple for a bit, but trust me its the camera, it was a bright neon blue.

 

VIDEO

 

 

 

 

 

[Ralph]

Did you get around to trying the Kperc based one ?

[Ventsi]

I have a few grounds salutes to test but in a pile it burns pretty slowly, slower that Bright KNO3 flash.

[Ralph]

is the colour any good though (im thinking of pressing it and using it as a gogoetter formula)

[Ventsi]

Ohh yeah its a pretty nice blue, I was thinking of trying the AP formula for falling leaves...

[Dr Boom]

Cu Benz... I'm interested so I'll bite. Looked up the synthesis for it with KBenz and CuSulfate. Anyone tried anything better? Looks like a good precipitate can be had around 0 C. Skylighter carries the CuBenz but they sure are proud of it, I'm pretty sure after S/H I can still make it cheaper than that.

 

Unless my math is really off (and it could be, Mumbles knows it's holding me up), if I could get 50% yield I'd be looking at CuBenz for 12-13$. Better yields would make this even cheaper in the long run. Now, that's assuming a reasonable purity even with half yield. But we all know what happens when one assumes... Any thoughts before I proceed?

[Ralph]

I have made it that way before (well actually with NaBenz so my colour purity wasn't awesome even after many washings) but you get a nice thick precipitate when you combine the two solutions I never did work out my yield though

[Ventsi]

Doc, I got about 85% yeild, the 15% was probably lost on filter paper. The stuff is pretty insoluble. Here's a tip or two:

 

Use A LOT of water, cold water [10*C] at that, distilled of course, start off with the Kbenz and CuSulfate in about 3-4x the amount of water they are soluble in. Filter off all the water/ K Sulfate solution, then take the CuBenz and while still on the filter paper put it on a stack of paper towels [they wick off even more solution] wash again once or twice, dry in an oven at 225* for four hours or until the Cu Benz stops changing color.

 

Edit: Doc scratch that, looking at my notes I got just above 50% yield, I don't know why it was that low since I took care not to lose any but that was it, as pure as I could get it.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Ventsi

[Dr Boom]

Starting up some CuBenz now:

 

Got my CuSO4 in today (awesome fast shipping via US pigments), 500ml H2O with 36 grams per 100ml with heat on the solution to saturate it. Still on the hotplate stirring so I'll check my saturation in a bit.

Looking at about 500ml H2O with 25 grams Kbenz per 100ml to start and will increase saturation rate with no heat.

After that I'm looking to crash both in an ice bath at 0 C. I've got plenty of both chems now and I'll work the methods so I can post up the best results with pictures.

 

Update: Went with two different methods with this batch, dissolving the K2SO4 out in a water filter and dissolving the CuBenz out in a EtOH filter. The alcohol route seems to be faster and uses less volume opposed to the H2O but is it cost effective? Probably not since I'm ending up with waste EtOH with trace amounts of CuBenz. Putting the EtOH mix on the stirrer (before filter but after first settling)to better dissolve the CuBenz. Perhaps heating and cooling to crystalize out the CuBenz would be a better idea... but I'll mess with it a bit more this weekend.

 

#2: Checked with a post with rec.pyro and for the most part I followed it.

 

To get pure copper benzoate, I recommend two things. After

mixing copper sulphate with either sodium banzoate or potassium

benzoate, cool the solution to 0 degrees C -- copper benzoate

is barely soluable in water at 0 C, so you will get the best yield

this way. Then wash the copper benzoate precipitate in alcohol

to remove the traces of sulphate. Copper benzoate is completely

insoluble in alcohol, and sodium sulphate and potassium sulphate

are both soluable.

 

So that brings up an interesting point, CuBenz, being insoluble in EtOH is left while the K2SO4 is diluted out- what IS CuBenz soluble in? K2SO4 washes out easy enough via a seperator (I have a 2 gallon glass bowl that water flows through and has a filter on one side to catch sediment). The two methods I tried yielded different color materials. One, using water only, is a fluffy light blue and holds a lot of water. The second, with EtOH, is a deeper pastel blue- but not fluffy at all.

 

Both are drying over night at 120 degrees currently and I'll grab some pictures in the morning.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Dr Boom

[Dr Boom]

Here are a couple samples:

 

 

The fluffy filtrate with water:

 

 

And the non-fluffy filtrate with EtOH:

 

 

I ran out of large filters so I'm going to improvise with some exlarge coffee filters, I still have about 3/4 of the total yield still in water in a 2 gallon container. I'll get it out this weekend, total the yields and see what comes out in the wash. Once I get my workspace cleaned up- can't imagine how everything is turning blue... I'll get some formulas going and get some more pictures up.

[Mumbles]

I'd bet it will dissolve in boiling methanol or ethanol. It may not be very soluble, but often it will become more soluble as it forms alcohol adducts from the water adducts. It may also be soluble in ammonia, but that could potentially decompose it.

[Dr Boom]

Some results are in:

 

Ended up dividing the dry samples I have into 2. (I have a bunch still wet) Two measurements at 13 grams each and 2:1 NH4ClO4/ CuBenz.

 

The first sample got 1 gram Parlon and acetone:

 

 

The second got 4 grams NC laq:

 

I didn't try to make pretty stars or anything, still working color saturations with different donors:

 

 

As you can see from the snapshot, the blue "shadow" on the countertop is quite good but the flame edge feathered to a slight yellow. Nothing sodium wise got into the mix but I believe that is from the plastic swizzle stick.... yeah, yeah, that's all I had at the moment I had the camera working.

The color is quite good without a donor but IS affected by the binder which makes the composition burn just a hair warmer- I'm testing this with multiple donors and my handy IR temp sensor.

 

I can already see the problems with this mix and trying to make rolled stars, pumps, etc. Anything with acetone and/or NC is sticky to start and by the time it dries enough to hold a shape, it does so with a lot of fuss- tried hand rolling a small ball and it didn't form smooth surfaces and the edges began to crumble. However, if the compositions are laid out for cut stars, Ventsi didn't you say something about that? It would work well.

 

Another option would be allowing it to dry and crack it to grains which could be used to start small star, compressed in a fountain for 'stars' or compressed straight into a comet configuration. Anything else guys? Besides turning into a smerf for a few days due to the size of my experiment, I think it has turned out rather well. Can't calc the yield yet because of some water weight hanging on but I'll get it soon enough.

[Ventsi]

Dr, are you sure your CB is completely dehydrated? Mine, even when mixed in with AP is a much, MUCH darker color.

 

And as for stars, I haven't made any as of yet since I ran out of all Acetone, NC and Parlon. If anything I'll stir up some ping pong balls when I get back from europe and try it out. But yeah, I think for now cutting, might be the only option, which is not too bad with me. I was thinking and maybe a alcohol soluble resin [phenolic?] might work for rolling but you'd have to try to find out. As far as pumping goes, I don't really think it'd be practical...

[Dr Boom]

I did check my humidity at the time and it was about 33% and both samples I mixed today had been in the oven at 120 overnight... so not too sure what happened with that. I just looked at the comps that I made, both are drying a very light pastel blue but both burn with a clean neon light.

 

Very little smoke with both mixtures, and the one with Parlon in it didn't seem to make 'that' much a detectable difference to me. Blue still looked, well, blue...

 

The flame edge I spoke of earlier was not from the swizzle stick, tested powders again on wood and metal surfaces and still have the slight yellow edges. I'll do some tweeks with the binders/ donors later on and see if there are any changes.