KNO3

[Pyropow3r]

Has anyone here ever made kno3?

 

There are a lot of ways to make it or people 'claim' that it does but do they really work.

 

I know combining ammonium nitrate + potassium hydroxide in a solution of water then just evaporate the water off. i know that this works for sure.

 

but what about leaching nitrate bearing earth and adding potassium carbonate to it to convert the various nitrates into potassium nitrate.

 

Does this method really work because this it how they made kno3 back in the old days apparently..... before the harbor process

 

if this method does work how would i go about doing it and so forth....

 

 

 

You are probably all thinking just buy the stuff which i already do by 25kg bags for 50 bucks a pop not to shabby eh.... a fairly decent pricing....

 

but i still want to know how to make it just encase my suppliers run dry due to bull shit laws and reforms...so i will still be in busines....

 

its a pyros nightmare when nitrate supplies run dry

 

so any ideas or thoughts let me know....

[Ralph]

there is the old way of combining very stale urine with other decomposing matter than mixing with ash not sure how it works but I know the urine solution provides the nitrate (once it becomes stale) and the ash provides the potassium I would certainly prefer to buy it

[Bonny]

There are a few methods out there, take a look on the web. Here is a version of the "old fashioned method":

www.fryingcolors.com/saltpeter.html

 

I once tried getting this going a few years ago at the cabin (using my own piss)...I think the mound is still there, but i don't get out there anymore. I did observe some crystals forming though.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Bonny

[Pyropow3r]

There are a few methods out there, take a look on the web. Here is a version of the "old fashioned method":

www.fryingcolors.com/saltpeter.html

 

I once tried getting this going a few years ago at the cabin (using my own piss)...I think the mond is still there, but i don't get out there anymore. I did observe some crystals forming though.

 

 

Thanks for the web page i will definatly try this one. ill hop to it right now...

 

ill let you guys now how it turns out...... so all you guys will know how to make kno3 if our supplies run dry....

 

Anybody else now anything that may be useful to us.....

[Pyropow3r]

One other thing how could i go about purifying the potassium nitrate???? anyone know...

[Mumbles]

Recrystallization would be good. It has a pretty steep solubility curve, so a lot can be dissolved and then crystallized out. So much in fact that a saturated solution is practically solid at RT.

[Ralph]

One other thing how could i go about purifying the potassium nitrate???? anyone know...

 

To purify KNO₃ you can recrystallise Here is a tutorial (sorry about it being on another forum)

 

 

p.s. there is an edit button try it out

[frosty90]

Other than making it by the 'traditional way', which sounds a bit messy.....I think the neighbours would prefer loud fireworks than a huge stinking mound, unless you are luck enough to have large piece of land.....I think nowdays nitrate is mostly mined, as various nitrate salts, and purified to the K salt somehow. Ammonium Nitrate is made from ammonia and nitric acid, the ammonia being made by the haber process ,and the nitric being made from the ammonia (high pressure, high temperature, big fancy reactor vessels i suppose.... not really doable for the backyard pyro...).

 

You could make nitric acid from air and high voltage electricity. Air is blown though a chamber that has a 'corona' discharge inside (if you've ever worked with high voltage, the various gasses, nitrogen oxides, ozone etc, that are formed are quite noticeable to the nose!), some of the nitrogen is converted to various nitric oxides, this is then absorbed into water to make nitric acid.... It might be an interesting project to try, Im thinking, have two vessels, one with an electric discharge, pump air through and use that to neutralize a KOH solution, then you should have KNO3 solution.....

 

I think that making nitrate in any sort of 'moderate' quantity is pretty inpractical on a non idustrial scale. Also ammonium nitrate is more restriced than potassium nitrate is it not? Seems like a strange path to go down.

 

I think the main question is not how to make 'potassium' nitrate, but how to make the nitrate ion. You can then stick any cation on you fancy....

 

Jesse

Edited April 15, 2010 by frosty90

[Ralph]

In some countries Ammonium nitrate is much easier to get than potassium (sourced either for farming or explosives purposes)

[Pyropow3r]

Other than making it by the 'traditional way', which sounds a bit messy.....I think the neighbours would prefer loud fireworks than a huge stinking mound, unless you are luck enough to have large piece of land.....I think nowdays nitrate is mostly mined, as various nitrate salts, and purified to the K salt somehow. Ammonium Nitrate is made from ammonia and nitric acid, the ammonia being made by the haber process ,and the nitric being made from the ammonia (high pressure, high temperature, big fancy reactor vessels i suppose.... not really doable for the backyard pyro...).

 

You could make nitric acid from air and high voltage electricity. Air is blown though a chamber that has a 'corona' discharge inside (if you've ever worked with high voltage, the various gasses, nitrogen oxides, ozone etc, that are formed are quite noticeable to the nose!), some of the nitrogen is converted to various nitric oxides, this is then absorbed into water to make nitric acid.... It might be an interesting project to try, Im thinking, have two vessels, one with an electric discharge, pump air through and use that to neutralize a KOH solution, then you should have KNO3 solution.....

 

I think that making nitrate in any sort of 'moderate' quantity is pretty inpractical on a non idustrial scale. Also ammonium nitrate is more restriced than potassium nitrate is it not? Seems like a strange path to go down.

 

I think the main question is not how to make 'potassium' nitrate, but how to make the nitrate ion. You can then stick any cation on you fancy....

 

Jesse

 

I think ill stick to the traditional method of making kno3 just for simplicities sake.... after all they did make it by decaying matter and potash for the past 1000 years without any problems its just a matter of patience and getting it right.

 

just imagine makeing your own kno3 for free at home the traditional way.....

[Ralph]

I think ill stick to the traditional method of making kno3 just for simplicities sake.... after all they did make it by decaying matter and potash for the past 1000 years without any problems its just a matter of patience and getting it right.

 

just imagine makeing your own kno3 for free at home the traditional way.....

 

I dont know about you but think about how much of your own urine you will need to handle to make even a kilo of KNO₃ is it really worth it I mean its better than the Birkeland–Eyde process(requires 15KwH to produce 1Kg ) but I know historically they used to collect urine from much of the population (i have a DVD on medieval BP production) you will probably need to collect urine from all your neighbour to make enough KNO₃ to keep up with what you use

[Arthur]

The trad bio method certainly kept the Chinese, Arab, and medaeval artificers BP supplies. Then there was nitrate from Chilean nitrate geological beds. Nowadays most nitrate comes from large scale industrial gas phase reactions. IIRC the Bourne -Haber process uses atmospheric nitrogen to produce ammonia and then oxidises that to nitrate ions and all the nitric acid that we want. High temperatures and high pressures, the catalysis and the sheer size of a kilo of Nitrogen (gas!) all make this rather unsuited for amateur use! Who's going to write the tutorial and Blog?!?

[jwitt]

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/bp_menu.html

 

This site was one of my inspirations for dabbling in pyrotechnics. Very interesting historical info, and a nice section on saltpeter.

[Arthur]

Couldn't edit so I'll add separately!

 

Chilean Nitrate has been found in the UK as a "natural" fertiliser -it's simply quarried sodium nitrate. So Green or organic garden suppliers may have useful stock.

[Swede]

I know you are talking about KNO3, but if suppliers truly go the way of the dinosaur, I will be making potassium chlorate and perchlorate electrolytically. Vastly easier than gardening s*** and p*** and attempting to purify KNO3.

 

I can't think of many fireworks applications that cannot (in some manner) be executed with these very useful oxidizers.

[gordohigh]

Saw a youtube video about making potassium nitrate and it looked real. The guy mined some earth from around a stable I think and he showed a yield, although was poor, IMHO.

 

 

I guess any farm would have some useful earth, and hog farms would rock, those guys pee constantly.

[Ralph]

I know you are talking about KNO3, but if suppliers truly go the way of the dinosaur, I will be making potassium chlorate and perchlorate electrolytically. Vastly easier than gardening s*** and p*** and attempting to purify KNO3.

 

I can't think of many fireworks applications that cannot (in some manner) be executed with these very useful oxidizers.

 

Glitters (one of my favourite effects) ive only seen one A1 which uses perc

there are also no charcoal streamers out there though my guess is its cost that is preventing that in this case

[Mumbles]

Yeah, it's cost with the streamers. If you need any examples, there are some old chlorate based lampblack streamers in Weingart. They burn more violently, and make a very nice tail.

[Ralph]

sounds really interesting I would love to see them (currently have an over abundance of chlorate so can definitely afford to use them as rising tails)

[Mumbles]

There is a little bit of nitrate in this one, but I've heard a lot of good things about this comp. I plan to make some nice crossette shells with it.

 

From BAFN 2 pg 85 - Dave Blesser

 

Potassium chlorate 33

Potassium nitrate 8

Charcoal dust 32

Lampblack 22

Dextrin 5

[Pyropow3r]

The urine isn't that much of a big deal you can make it without it in fact. I just recently found out that the urine just gives it a boost because it contains extra nitrogen and potassium.

 

Just use potash instead for the extra potassium (white wood ashes = potassium carbonate) and the decomposing matter its self (manure) will make nitrogen and intern will produce nitrite and then nitrate under bacterial oxidization.

 

use whatever urine you can to keep the nitrate bed damp if its not enough use some water instead. The dampness will allow for bacterial colonies to grow.....

[Vrizla]

It seems like eventually tight restrictions are inevitable. I'm sure everyone knows what happened to firefox. They are still open but have restrictions on certain items and you must send them your atf licence for them. Unfortunately I think its just a matter of time before all suppliers are required to do the same. Mostly I think its because of terrorism and stupid people that don't follow any sort of safety precautions. I don't want to get to far off the topic but does anyone know about any current legislation in the works? And can anyone sell common pyro chemical and metals over the internet. I know ebay has restrictions, I'm just talking in general. Edited April 17, 2010 by Vrizla

[dagabu]

Firefox indeed has limits on their chems and Skylighter volunteered to follow the same limits. These limits do not at this time apply to anyone else... however, the laws do stipulate that "kits" for boomers are going to be pursued and stopped as they find them.

 

Online vendors will be dealt with if they break the laws, dont sell boomers or kits and you are likely to be left alone. Well, until the currant government decides to become a fully socialistic entity and takes all of our liberties away.

 

D

[Ralph]

you guys not nothing to worry about look at Australia we are more restricted than um something restricted anyway we arnt allowed anything yet we still manage you guys have a bill of rights and a constitution witch sets out important stuff Australia's on the other hand is a whole load of rubbish about parliament and how our elections are to be run we are not explicitly even given the freedom to speech infact In some states in Australia we are not free to speak our mind we have religious vilification laws. if a gun shop refuses sale of several kilos of smokeless powder to a middle eastern person they may be punished under these laws if a minister says that the being gay is wrong he may be punished weather these things are morally right to do or not they certainly are not crimes end rant

[Arthur]

Limits on the availability of oxidisers would be a PITA. However we all know someone who's main use for pyro is making flash salutes, which only serve to irritate the neighbours, and legislators.

 

Thanks to the work of Swede et al we have Chlorate manufacture made possible -even made easy. Perc will follow when the electrode conditions are sorted. Nitrate was the original oxidiser available to the early artificers of China Asia and Europe, and all of that was bio nitrate. Fixation of atmospheric nitrogen has always been a problem in agriculture, but with organic fertilisers progress is possible there. Just that the bio production of nitrate really suits rural areas.

 

Now if anyone really fancies some serious science development then a chemical means of fixing nitrogen would be a world food crisis solution AND a pyro oxidiser solution. But til then......