Magnallium vs magnesium+aluminum

[PoorBoy]

Before i get flamed i did search on the topic and couldn't find what i was looking for on this question. Yes I am aware magnallium is an alloy and not seperate metals and i found the tutorial on how to make it which was great. Can you use a 50/50 mixture of aluminum and magnesium in formulas calling for magnallium. I figured it may affect formulas some how otherwise people wouldn't spend the time on tutorials for making magnalium. Basically i have aluminum and magnesium powders already and dont want to spend the money on magnalium but i want to make formulas calling for it. I figured some one else thought of this and tried it, and wanted to hear some experience. Can it be substituted?

[Bonny]

Before i get flamed i did search on the topic and couldn't find what i was looking for on this question. Yes I am aware magnallium is an alloy and not seperate metals and i found the tutorial on how to make it which was great. Can you use a 50/50 mixture of aluminum and magnesium in formulas calling for magnallium. I figured it may affect formulas some how otherwise people wouldn't spend the time on tutorials for making magnalium. Basically i have aluminum and magnesium powders already and dont want to spend the money on magnalium but i want to make formulas calling for it. I figured some one else thought of this and tried it, and wanted to hear some experience. Can it be substituted?

 

Simply, no.

In some cases (such as dragon eggs) it won't work at all. In other comps it may work, but the effect won't be the same.

[Ralph]

In some formulas it will work but the whole reason behind using magnalium rather than magnesium (or magnesium and aluminium) is that magnalium alloy is more stable than magnesium and therefore makes safer stars

[xetap]

While magnalium is required for dragon eggs, if would appear that the eggs' behavior can be altered by adding either elemental Mg or Al to the comp.

 

I asked a question regarding an "electric arc"-like effect I had produced using finer-than-usual magnalium when making eggs.

 

The response from LLoyd was:

 

"There are at least two things that can cause the electric-arc sound:

One is the presence of any solvent at all in the crackle grain. If the grains have not been meticulously dried prior to the test, you'll see that. What happens there is that the smoulder phase can't spread rapidly enough to heat the whole grain, so multiple smaller explosions occur.

 

"Another is an excess of free magnesium in the formula. The smaller the mesh size of the MgAl, the more magnesium that is presented on the surfaces of the particles. It is what burns during the smoulder, and having too much of it present results in a very rapid smoulder that

spawns multiple little cracks that sound like an errant electric arc.

 

"One experiment yesterday caused that very effect, when I added a small amount of flake magnesium to the formula to assay its effect on the time- domain of our product. Every granule sputtered like what you describe.

 

"Since it would be impossible to maintain a small amount of solvent in your granules, the second approach is the one I'd use to create that effect.

 

"You didn't say if among your ingredients is some excess aluminum. If there is, try removing or reducing that before you change anything else.

 

"Oh... it turned out our problem was caused by our chemical supplier. They shipped 65/35 MgAl re-badged as 50/50. Good MgAl corrected the problem. LLoyd"

[PoorBoy]

thanx guys that pretty much answered it for me. i guess i need to spend the money on magnallium then.

[dagabu]

One thing not mentioned thus far is that you have to treat any free Mg where stearic acid (I use boric acid) will keep the Mg/Al from reacting with the nitrates in the comp. I like to make sure it is dry before storing comps due to the possibility of them heating up and igniting.

 

D

[PoorBoy]

One thing not mentioned thus far is that you have to treat any free Mg where stearic acid (I use boric acid) will keep the Mg/Al from reacting with the nitrates in the comp. I like to make sure it is dry before storing comps due to the possibility of them heating up and igniting.

 

D

 

 

are u saying treat both Mg and Al with boric acid when using in nitrate comps, or to treat Magnallium with boric acid in nitrate comps. If you were going to make a slow flash mix with Al, sulfur, KNO3 would u treat your Al with boric acid?

[Mumbles]

He'll have to explain the boric acid comment, but there is no reason to use boric acid with slow flash. The reaction can only happen in the presence of moisture. Unless you plan to granulate the flash, you'll be fine. You can add a percent or two to the mix if it makes you feel better though.

[dagabu]

Sorry,

 

I was replying to the question first phrased, "Can you use a 50/50 mixture of aluminum and magnesium in formulas calling for magnallium." in which I forgot to add that you need to protect your metals if you add water to the comp.

 

D

[PoorBoy]

lol thanks for clearing that up, ill definately keep that in mind though wasn't something i knew. So to make sure i understand this correctly mg+al+water = bad without being treated and Al+nitrates+water = bad without being treated. what about star formulas that use KNO3 and Al for glitter or a tail, should i treat those too? I think I've heard guys talking about watching those stars while they are drying or to keep them out doors until they dry to be safe. is this the same reaction they are talking about?

[Ralph]

MgAl in water is fine (dependant on the oxidiser) Al generally with nitrates treating with boric acid is a good idea though in some formula's it is just not possible (such as glitters containing carbonates) ading boric acid wont do anything and yes drying stars out side is always best and often will decrease your drying time due to air moving across the stars

[Mumbles]

You can add boric acid to carbonate glitters. They're the only ones that have much of a chance of reacting anyway from the basic conditions. Try to mix boric acid and sodium bicarb. I couldn't get them to react at all. Someone said they could by heating, but I haven't tried that. Carbonic acid is a stronger acid than boric acid, thus it wont decompose carbonates.

[PoorBoy]

this is all great info, i guess i need to do some research on reactions a little more. for the most part the only thing i have had to be conscious of was sulfur and chlorates. but now that im getting some more chems and expanding my stock a little in the area of metals, I'll need to do some independent research for a little while so u guys dont have to explain all the reactions i'm sure i can find on this forum with a little searching. thanks for all the info, made some things pop out that i needed to learn about to be safe.

[oldguy]

Please be so kind as to excuse my ignorance in this area.

 

Pyrotechnics is neither my forte, or expertise.

 

But, I have a conundrum to resolve involving magnalium (100 mesh 50/50 alloy powder)

 

My questions are this:

 

1^st. Is there any compatible binder, filler or additive that will considerably slow the Mg/Al burn rate?

 

(by “compatible”, I mean relatively stable & weatherproof).

 

2nd. If there is more than one (1), which is the least expensive?

 

Thank you for any assistance in resolving my question.

 

If you should ever have a “mining” questions, I am a mining engineer by trade.

 

I would be happy to answer any I can.

 

Thanks, oldguy

 

 

[Ralph]

Please be so kind as to excuse my ignorance in this area.

 

Pyrotechnics is neither my forte, or expertise.

 

But, I have a conundrum to resolve involving magnalium (100 mesh 50/50 alloy powder)

 

My questions are this:

 

1^st. Is there any compatible binder, filler or additive that will considerably slow the Mg/Al burn rate?

 

(by "compatible", I mean relatively stable & weatherproof).

 

2nd. If there is more than one (1), which is the least expensive?

 

Thank you for any assistance in resolving my question.

 

If you should ever have a "mining" questions, I am a mining engineer by trade.

 

I would be happy to answer any I can.

 

Thanks, oldguy

 

 

 

can you provide alittle more info such as the formula in question

[oldguy]

Sadly, as a newbie there is no formula I am aware of. That is what I am trying to determine.

 

I have looked at a lot of fusee/flare type compositions, but most appear to give off a lot of noxious gas

 

What I am hoping for as an end result is a very hot burning visco fuse ignited special purpose ground flare.

 

One with a slow burn rate that will burn for at least 1 minute, better yet 2.

 

Which doesn't contain sulfur, or anything else that gives off large amounts of noxious gas.

 

Flare flame color doesn't matter.

 

I realize length & thickness will have to be determined to calculate burn duration.

 

I am just trying to determine the ingredient composition.

 

After that, what to use as a binder.

 

Also, excepting Mg/Al costs, the end cost per flare will an issue, so I am looking for the least expensive formula possible.

 

I would like to make them near weather/water proof, plus will store well for long periods.

Edited January 3, 2011 by oldguy

[Ralph]

ok so you need something over fueled with no sulfur I presume you live in the US ?

 

give me a couple days and Ill post a comp that will suit your needs

[oldguy]

ok so you need something over fueled with no sulfur I presume you live in the US ?

 

give me a couple days and Ill post a comp that will suit your needs

 

You sir, are a true gentleman & I greatly appreciate your effort.

 

U.S. A. is correct.

 

But, most of us in Alaska refer to the mainland as the “lower 48”.

 

 

[oldguy]

Again, displaying my own ignorance in the pyro arena.

 

But attempting to answer my own question.

 

I found this white magnesium flare composition:

 

25.5% Magnesium

34.5% Potassium Nitrate

34.5% Barium Nitrate

5.5% Binder

 

Question:

Can this modification be made?

 

Replace the Mg component part above with Mg/Al?

 

Because Al is present in the 50/50 Mg/Al powder, along with a nitrate.

I gather it would be wise to add about 1 to 2% boric acid as a stabilizer to prevent any nitrate/aluminum reaction?

 

Next question:

 

What would be the least expensive, but durable plastic like binder composition?

 

Next question:

 

Because Barium Nitrate has such high toxicity.

 

Is there any substitute that is not (as) toxic, but would produce a similar effect?

 

Thanks in advance for any help here.

Edited January 8, 2011 by oldguy

[Mumbles]

I suspect you can in fact use magnalium in that composition. It doesn't use any properties of magnesium that are too critical besides that it burns white. To partly answer your next question, you only have to worry about boric acid if you're using a water based binder.

 

I would say parlon might be the cheapest plastic like binder, but that may also shift your white flare to somewhat greenish. Polyester plastics are commonly used in flares, something like bondo fiberglass resin may work. Resourcinol resin has some use in pyro too, so that may not be a bad choice.

 

I don't think there are many replacements for barium in this formula. You could try using all potassium nitrate, or adding in potassium perchlorate. Most other oxidizers would probably start to color the mix, or be somewhat incompatible.

[dagabu]

Nevermind Edited January 8, 2011 by dagabu

[Ralph]

sorry about thetime taken Ive been rather bussy but here is a good cheap formula with minimalchemicals (so that you dont have to buy so many) it lights fromvisco and burns for long enough (and fulfills the other criteria youmentioned) it is a slaggy underfuelled compand should only be placed in thin tubes

 

 

 

here is a test pic of a 1/4" id x 2"long tube (burn time of 1.33) (I do not recomend putting it in asmall tube and or one with decent walls they must be thin)

 

 

 

http://pyrobin.com/files/slow%20rred_1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so whats thecomposition

 

Slow Rred (intentionally spelled like that)

Strontium Nitrate 80.5

Parlon 9

Potassium benzoate 6

MgAl 4.5

 

wet with acetone and press putty into a thin papertube push in visco fuse ( I only tested it with 3mm visco it didnt seem to haveany problems so I would assume any visco will ignite it)

all these chemical (with exception of the MgAlwhich you requested be included) are very cheap

NOTE: this has not been tested in the air (though should work) and has been made in a short amount of time further optimization could certainly be done

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2011 by Ralph

[oldguy]

Thank you Sir.

 

I greatly appreciate the knowledge-time-effort-materials you put into this.

 

It is sincerely appreciated.