Fusing paper shells after pasting?

[jwitt]

I'll be cranking out some 3" shells for the 4th, and I'm researching ways to make my pasting operation more efficient.

 

Method #1 would be building the shell with time fuse installed, crossmatched internally, and sticking out of the bottom hemi. A bead of glue would hold the time fuse in and provide the beginnings of a fire-safe seal...maybe a small "fillet" if you know the term, around the exterior bit of time fuse. During pasting, I imagine the strips ending at the time fuse end occasionally coming up the fuse a bit, building up into a nice curved shape that would deflect pressures and increase the seal.

 

Method #2 would be building the shell and closing it without fusing. A hole would then be carefully cut (with a drill bit by hand?) and the fuse inserted. Using certain standard pasting methods, it should be easy enough to identify where the poles of the shell are. After fuse is installed and a bead of glue has been run around it, I wonder if this is a good enough fire seal? To avoid a flowerpot, a length of glue/paste soaked string could be applied around the time fuse in a conical shape. Hmm, that cross match better be well attached to the time fuse since it must be forced into the shell.

 

Note that I'm using 1/4" chinese time fuse. Spolettes are possibly in my future, but that's a project for later.

 

Note also that no non-compatible chemicals are in the shell, so disturbing little bits within the casing won't cause any problems...might be an issue with chlorate petals, etc, but I'm only using compatible stuff.

 

The advantage I see to Method #2 is that the shell is an actual ball shape during pasting. The time fuse can't get beat up.

 

The disadvantages to Method #2 are that 1) fuse hole must be located and cut and 2) time fuse must be crammed up into the shell, which may damage its cross match.

 

Also, Method #2 precludes any sort of passfire pipe/tube in the internal design, which probably isn't necessary in a 3" ball anyway. I do like the idea of a passfire around the crossmatch and end of time fuse though- concentrating a blast of hot gasses into the burst charge for fast, even ignition.

 

Thoughts, kind sirs?

Edited March 8, 2010 by jwitt

[Bonny]

I'll be cranking out some 3" shells for the 4th, and I'm researching ways to make my pasting operation more efficient.

 

Method #1 would be building the shell with time fuse installed, crossmatched internally, and sticking out of the bottom hemi. A bead of glue would hold the time fuse in and provide the beginnings of a fire-safe seal...maybe a small "fillet" if you know the term, around the exterior bit of time fuse. During pasting, I imagine the strips ending at the time fuse end occasionally coming up the fuse a bit, building up into a nice curved shape that would deflect pressures and increase the seal.

 

Method #2 would be building the shell and closing it without fusing. A hole would then be carefully cut (with a drill bit by hand?) and the fuse inserted. Using certain standard pasting methods, it should be easy enough to identify where the poles of the shell are. After fuse is installed and a bead of glue has been run around it, I wonder if this is a good enough fire seal? To avoid a flowerpot, a length of glue/paste soaked string could be applied around the time fuse in a conical shape. Hmm, that cross match better be well attached to the time fuse since it must be forced into the shell.

 

Note that I'm using 1/4" chinese time fuse. Spolettes are possibly in my future, but that's a project for later.

 

Note also that no non-compatible chemicals are in the shell, so disturbing little bits within the casing won't cause any problems...might be an issue with chlorate petals, etc, but I'm only using compatible stuff.

 

The advantage I see to Method #2 is that the shell is an actual ball shape during pasting. The time fuse can't get beat up.

 

The disadvantages to Method #2 are that 1) fuse hole must be located and cut and 2) time fuse must be crammed up into the shell, which may damage its cross match.

 

Also, Method #2 precludes any sort of passfire pipe/tube in the internal design, which probably isn't necessary in a 3" ball anyway. I do like the idea of a passfire around the crossmatch and end of time fuse though- concentrating a blast of hot gasses into the burst charge for fast, even ignition.

 

Thoughts, kind sirs?

 

You could still use a passfire tube with method #2. IIRC shells amde on a WASP use a small magnet to mark where the fuse will go. After the shell is pasted, a small hole is cut to remove the magnet and timefuse/spollette inserted and glued in. You can also put a short pc of 1/2" or 3/4"ID paper tube around the fuse and fill the "well" with hot melt to seal the fuse in.

I made a few 3" shells on Tentacles' WASP{ and we forgot to put a magnet or anything in to mark the fuse hole.Also, there was no passfire to the centre of the shell. I just drilled (by hand with a drill bit) a small hole and jammed the timefuse in, worked just fine. I've never crossmatched the timefuse inside of any shell,I just cut the timefuse on an angle.

[jwitt]

Yeah, I guess a pasting machine wouldn't like a shell with time fuse sticking out But putting a little nub at the hole, like the magnet you referred to...this sounds good.

 

Since I'm diving right into the deep end in my shell building program, I want to use a passfire to eliminate variables and try to get close to good breaks early in my "career"

 

I should test my time fuse tonight- it's one thing on hand I haven't played with. If it spits pretty good, I'll try your angle-cut method into the passfire. I suppose the passfire tube could be filled with lift powder, which ought to take fire from the time fuse pretty easily?

 

Then, I'd glue in the passfire tube in assembly, build & seal the shell, mark the fuse hole, paste it, dry it, come back and cut out the paper over the magnet, use a little funnel to introduce lift powder into the passfire, insert & attach time fuse, give it a fillet on the outside, and attach lift cup.

[50AE]

I always prefer the method N1, drilling the shell after pasting makes me nervous.

Plus, with the N1 method I can seal the timefuse from both sides of the hemi with hot glue.

And as you say, a nice crown near the time fuse is formed after the pasting the shell. This protects it even more from the hot gases.

[Arthur]

Take a .25 bore card tube and glue it through the hemi pointing at the centre. Tape some QM into the inside end and seal the joint with paper tape. Then load both hemis and close the shell. Paste usually by the three strip method. Then take the time fuse at the correct length, inside end cut diagonally outside end crossmatched and tied off. secure the .25 fuse with white glue and wind a fillet of gluey string over the base of the time fuse.

 

When dry the time fuse is ignited by the lift but the string fillet keeps the fire from the fuse hole in the hemi. The QM inthe top of the fuse tube takes the fire to the middle to assist a good round burst.

[jwitt]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone!

[Mumbles]

So, my view on this is greatly influenced by my pasting method. I leave an opening at each pole I am using, which is the same whether or not I add the time fuse in before or after. I prefer to add it beforehand so I am not drilling into live materials (passfire tube or not). If you're going to do it, do it the right way. Pre-drill the hole in the hemi and use a passfire tube. Anyone dumb enough to use a power drill on a live shells (check youtube, it's there) deserves what they have coming.

 

I've seen this topic come up before. The best way would be to try a few both ways. It really only came about because of the WASP. There is a necessity to fuse afterward there. For hand pasting, I really see no advantage to adding the fuse afterward. It's not in the way, and burnishing around a fuse is actually pretty easy. I've seen people who obviously have no idea what they're doing posting videos of the "WASP method" on youtube. They paste with longer strips, applied in no real pattern, and roll it around like a madman on a table. One guy even dropped one on the floor.

 

This is all kind of a moot point if you're not going to be using paper tape.

 

Which ever way you settle on, use a passfire tube anyway. It's simple, and one of the best ways IMO to improve your breaks. Even quickmatch to the center of the shell is quite helpful. The shell should also come out quite symmetrical, no matter which way you decide.

[Bonny]

Even quickmatch to the center of the shell is quite helpful. The shell should also come out quite symmetrical, no matter which way you decide.

 

That's what I use as a passfire to the centre. It fits nicely over 1/4" timefuse.

[Mumbles]

I use quickmatch for single petal shells. The blue 5 strand stuff. It goes off like a firecracker on the ground, so I figure it's just as violent in a shell. For double petal and some specialty shells, I do use actual hard walled tubes. Trying to line up floppy quickmatch through holes in an inner petal is not always all that easy. Plus double petal shells tend to be bigger, and more likely to have 2 fuses. Let me tell you, trying to thread quickmatch on those is not something I am going to be doing again. There are a few other reasons I've been switching to hard walled tubes for multipetal shells too. Shimizu and Jim Widmann both presented similar techniques, where the shell is built inner petal to outer petal instead of outer petal to inner petal that I have been meaning to experiment with.

[jwitt]

burnishing around a fuse is actually pretty easy.

 

That was something I wondered about- whether using gummed tape or kraft strips and paste. I could see making a PVC pipe "trough" to efficently burnish shells, which could be quickly done all over the sphere with no fuse poking out. That trough could be mounted to a scrap piece of plywood, as well as a PVC pipe shell stand. Size both pieces of pipe correctly, add a 3" ID "gauge pipe" and I'd have quite a little workstation.

 

Argh getting off topic. Anyway, without even looking at youtube, I don't think it would be a good idea to go to the trouble of making paper shells and then trying to replicate a machine's pattern by hand. Sounds like a lumpy mess.

 

Quickmatch- seems I can't get the real stuff shipped, so I'll just load up on little passfire tubes that will fit my time fuse, and attach some blackmatch pieces to the end to catch and spread the fire. I do need to learn to make blackmatch, but for now I'm harvesting it from skylighter's fast paper fuse which contains 3 strands. Not a terribly expensive option- a lot more cost-saving methods are going to be implemented for 2011.

 

And lucky me- I won't be doing any multi-petal shells this year, so I don't have to worry about threading match through the shell

 

Good to know though, I figured multiple petals would just go ahead and light from hot burst gasses and fire.

Edited March 8, 2010 by jwitt

[Ventsi]

As everyone else I recommend you put the fuse in in the first place and use a pass fire tube.

The time fuse is perfectly safe with a piece of masking tape around it and doesn't get in the way at all, and the pass fire tubes help get a good break , plus you have some more room outside the shell for cross matching.

 

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/4661-cross-matching-and-passfires/

[Plasm7]

I paste my shells with the same pattern that the wasps use and it seems to go much faster. I put the fuse in first then just rip the tape when need to go over the fuse. It takes about 1/4th the time to paste a 3inch if you do it like the wasps do. Thats just my opinion and the best advice I can give you is to try different ways and experiment.

[Mumbles]

I paste my shells with the same pattern that the wasps use and it seems to go much faster. I put the fuse in first then just rip the tape when need to go over the fuse. It takes about 1/4th the time to paste a 3inch if you do it like the wasps do. Thats just my opinion and the best advice I can give you is to try different ways and experiment.

 

So, out of curiousity, where did you get the algorithm that the WASP uses? If you've ever watched one, while being a continuous strip, it's not a continuous layer.

[jwitt]

Ahh, you know, one thing I thought about the time fuse sticking out of the shell was protecting it from paste, but I see! I might be getting overly fancy, but boy wouldn't it be cool to get some of that "tool dip" type stuff and mold some rubber time fuse caps on a dowel coated in release? Just a random brainstorm.

 

Very nice tutorial Ventsi! I need to find my anvil cutter, but I think my parents may have run off with it when they moved from the area.

 

Also an interesting point brought up about changes in masking tape adhesive.

 

I'm starting to think it would be easy to go ahead and prepare time fuse / passfire assemblies for bulk shell production, just to eliminate one tinkery little step. Have to pack 'em in tissue paper in a little box, with a desiccant pack, since they'll be delicate.

 

Despite needing to square away my gear for 9 days in the woods starting Saturday, I've gotta get home and assemble a time fuse/passfire just to prove out the concept...and light something. When I forget my can opener, I'll just blame pyro-obsession.

 

With regard to pasting with a single, long strip of gummed tape, I'm curious how the heck a person could do this and get even, consistent layers built up. Seems like it would get confusing in the least. Too much for my mind...it would surely explode! (Or I'd end up with an egg-shaped shell)

Edited March 9, 2010 by jwitt

[dagabu]

"Ahh, you know, one thing I thought about the time fuse sticking out of the shell was protecting it from paste, but I see! I might be getting overly fancy, but boy wouldn't it be cool to get some of that "tool dip" type stuff and mold some rubber time fuse caps on a dowel coated in release? Just a random brainstorm."

 

Hmmm, something to cover the time fuse from paste....

 

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/dsc_9931-1.jpg

 

$15.00 a thousand, $26.00 delivered to the lower 48. They come in red, slip over the time fuse, impervious to water and make great timed reports to boot!

 

I also have them in yellow but they would be way to tight for a cover.

 

D

[jwitt]

Ahahaha beautiful!

 

See, my paste-monkeys might get a little, er, sloppy. They sat me down and reminded me about the old days of rum rations on sailing ships.

 

Timed reports, eh? Hrmmm...I wonder if you could stick a small piece of visco in there, shielded from the burst, primed on the end...an appropriate charge of report comp could fit in something like that I bet...ought to give nice little bangs, and I assume one could get enough confinement out of the system. Fast visco would be necessary, maybe a 3/4 to 1 sec delay would be suitable for use in a 3" shell. That could be a pretty neat effect, and an insert that's small enough to cram a few in a 3 inch ball. Deeper down the rabbit hole I go

[dagabu]

Oh no, don't use visco, time fuse super glues perfectly into these. I have them custom molded to specifications I got from a Master at making these.

 

Think Maltese shells but on a very small scale. ALL of the shells in the video below are 2.5" ID or less. Thay are all lifted on 1# BP rockets.

 

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/cap%20plug%20reports%201%20photo%20by%20rocket%20j.jpg

 

There are some crosetts as well in the beginning so wait for the timed reports, these are the cap plugs in action!

 

http://www.pyrotube.com/videos/179/cracker-jacks-spring-2009

 

Enjoy!

[Plasm7]

Sorry I miss spoke My shells have a similar pattern but I was just trying to say I used a continuos strip method like the machines do.

[jwitt]

D- that video...eh...man...I'm dumbfounded. Now I see the purpose of the blocks in the picture of the inserts.

 

The rest of the video is truly inspirational too! My day just got better!

[dagabu]

The fun is only beginning! The technical discipline it takes to craft one of these is dumbfounding. I am looking forward to several years or research and playing around with various methods and materials to get these to do different things.

 

Dave

[gordohigh]

Dagabu, are those rockets in the video yours, because those are beautiful! And, for small shells just utterly fantastic and well timed with awessome breaks. What was the mix in the cavity stars that made them go-getters.

 

That is my new favorite video, just lovely!

[dagabu]

Gordo,

 

Sorry, I wish I could claim them as my own but i cannot. They belong to a pyro that wishes to remain anonymous. I am just doing the sales of the cap plugs and putting a tutorial together based on his methods.

 

Dave