Flash powder safety

[dagabu]

I just mop the floor, go get a cup of coffee and when I return, the air is muggy. Never had any static in the shop.

 

-dag

[oldguy]

OG, while I don't know how heavily those ionizers work with static buildup in a room, I very much doubt they reduce them. In fact I have been working on a project that uses the same electronics found in one of those to CREATE static charge. It does a fine job of it too. I wouldn't want flash within 100 yards. If you want to reduce static, a humidifier is the way to go.

 

You might want to read up on this unit.

 

http://www.simco-ion.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=aihmkvGP7gM%3d&tabid=138

 

I doubt it sells new retail for $600, if it doesnt function as described.

[NightHawkInLight]

I see. There's a good possibility that I'm totally misguided about how that sort of ionizer functions.

[Mumbles]

There are two ways to relieve static build up. One is to bleed away the charge. This is how zapping yourself on a door handle and anti-static mats and strips generally work. The other way to negate the charge by hitting it with an ion of the opposite charge. The static charge will absorb ions of an opposite charge to neutralize themselves and repel the same charge.

 

In my day job I do plenty of air-sensitive chemistry. I do much of my work in a glove box that is (ideally) maintained at less than 1ppm water and 1ppm oxygen. I assure you that static is often an issue working is such a dry environment. Clearly throwing a humidifier or bucket of water in there is not an option. We do use similar units. There are the electrical units such as Oldguy posted, as well as some strips we leave around. The strips have mildly radioactive substances in them, which as they decay will ionize the air and kill the static. I believe they have a very tiny amount of polonium-210 in them. NHIL, I assure you that they do work. They function by having two sharp points near each other and putting a high voltage potential across them. The alternating current of AC generates both positive and negative ions this way. The DC ones need to have their polarity switched around. These ions float off, and at least for our purposes will eliminate static over a few feet. This is all in an enclosed environment, but they are much smaller than what was posted. The radioactive strips are better, but ever since the spy was poisoned with Po-210, they've been a little harder to find despite needing probably a few thousand to acquire a lethal amount even if you could extract it. I can tell you that the ones used for chemistry output both positive and negative ions, which are effective against static. I doubt that something that doesn't produce both charges would be very effective. I think the ionizers used for air purification only produce one.

 

It really wouldn't surprise me if they'd easily be able to converted to a static generating device. I bet all that is needed is to continually feed the electricity in one direction so as to only generate ions of a single charge.

[NightHawkInLight]

I doubt that something that doesn't produce both charges would be very effective. I think the ionizers used for air purification only produce one.

Yes, the ones used for air purification only produce negative ions, which is why I was skeptical of any static relief. I see that on that particular model you can turn a dial to the positive spectrum, which is why I imagine it is so expensive compared to an ionizer used only for air purification.

 

It really wouldn't surprise me if they'd easily be able to converted to a static generating device. I bet all that is needed is to continually feed the electricity in one direction so as to only generate ions of a single charge.

Unfortunately not. That was something I was hoping for myself, but the ionizers meant to run on AC will not function at all on DC. I had to run DC current into a cheap cigarette lighter converter to allow AC ionizers to function.

[shagaKahn]

Pardon my density, but how would you know which kind of static charge you'd built up in your clothes and body and material you were handling?

 

A device that produces additional ions of any type would seem to me to be as likely to cause an accident as to prevent one (in the context of mixing 70/30).

 

In a static discharge the electrons move from the object with too much charge towards the object with too little--but how could you possibly know which was which in every situation? How would you know whether to set that ionizer to + or -?

 

(Did some googling and it looks like you can make your own anti-static spray either out of diluted fabric softener or straight white vinegar).

[aadoublea]

A few things I am always worried about while making fp is:

 

First is after diapering is finished I fold paper in half(hotdog) and pour fp into casing. I use a piece of paper rolled up as a funnel that goes halfway inside the casing so no fp gets on sides of casing where end plug meets casing wall. Is there enough friction from the fp sliding along paper into casing to warrant problems?

 

My second questions is: I am always scared to press my end plug into the casing. I worry that a residual amount of fp could remain on the side of casing and pressing the endplug in will ignite it.

 

 

My steps are as follows:

 

Measure out pot perc and place on diaper paper, measure out Indian Al and place on top of pot perc on diaper paper. Diaper them. Fold diaper paper in half and pour into casing. Put glue on end cap and press into casing. In advance I have already attached fuse(with glue) and other end cap.

 

I just fear the friction from the mixture sliding into the casing and from pressing in the end cap. Are these logical fears or I am just to paranoid? Can anyone respond with a few tips to make my process safer?

 

Thanks,

AadoubleA

 

Also I have coated the inside of an empty casing with fp and twisted end-cap in, trying to make as much friction as possible with no ignition. I have poured small amounts on anvil and hit with a hammer repeatedly and I cannot set the stuff off. So to me my mixture does not seem to be "very" friction or impact sensitive. I still will always worry about putting that last end cap in. I can't even imagine sticking the metal "hot" end of a glue gun inside the casing, dispensing hot glue about the mixture and then capping it.

 

Go ahead and flame away because I'm a noobie or what do you guys call it? Kewl?

[dagabu]

I sift mine through 60 mesh Stainless Steel screen twice to completely integrate it. You are much safer then I am and you should always have that "pucker" when putting friction on "F", it will keep you alive much longer. I only use a few grams in each heading so I make all my "F" in one batch once a year with humidity about 80% with NO chance of static.

 

I would never flame you, you are doing everything you can to reduce the risks, k3wls are noobs that are unsafe and careless, that want to make b00ms and not art.

 

-dag

[aadoublea]

I sift mine through 60 mesh Stainless Steel screen twice to completely integrate it. You are much safer then I am and you should always have that "pucker" when putting friction on "F", it will keep you alive much longer. I only use a few grams in each heading so I make all my "F" in one batch once a year with humidity about 80% with NO chance of static.

 

I would never flame you, you are doing everything you can to reduce the risks, k3wls are noobs that are unsafe and careless, that want to make b00ms and not art.

 

-dag

 

 

Unfortunately I did just what everyone hates. I started with the booms. I researched and read and read and read for over a month before I tried anything physically, but still. I would absolutely love to make some rockets(bottle) or mortars but its just seems so far above me. Thats why I joined so I can learn. I'm only 28 but I've always had a passion for fireworks.

 

I've always loved booms more than color.

 

To tell you the truth though I just don't know if I have the stones to make much more of anything. What I would really like is to find a group to learn from. I like hands on training. Anyone know of groups in Northern Michigan?

 

It all interests me so much!

 

Thanks,

A

[NightHawkInLight]

http://www.mpag.org/

 

Come out and have some fun with us

[50AE]

There are several reasons FP is so much safety discussed. One of them is - FP is very well known among young, teenage thinking, irresponsible people. Of course it is - it requires two chemicals, doesn't require chemical or pyro knowledge to mix and you get an explosive - cool, until something bad happens. Many young ones started with FP - I know I did and I'm sure other very intelligent people from here did too. There's nothing be ashamed from - you're a kid, you get impressed by the noise and light it makes, it's so simple to do.

 

But there's a problem. FP is not the best comp one should be introduced with into pyrotechnics. First - it's very energetic, second - it requires caution of very high level. An analogous example to this is to give a racing car to a guy who just passed his driving's license.

 

So there is nothing wrong with FP. But it requires skills and knowledge that most beginners don't have, so we try to avoid discussing it with knew ones. When one progresses into the hobby he/she may notice that FP is no longer so impressive. Some pyros handle even more dangerous mixes than FP.

 

Some beginners may take warnings from experienced pyros as an offense. Like "That guy Mumbles, who's he to tell me what to do". Please don't take it as an offense, even if it sounds like so. All Mumbles or another wise pyro could have done to you, is a priceless advice that could save your health one day.

 

Sometimes a remark may sound rude, but in this forum we do respect safety and human life, so if we sometimes act like dicks, it's mostly for your own good.

Edited August 30, 2012 by 50AE

[Peret]

Plus, it must be said, a few years ago the CPSC was persecuting - no other word for it - the suppliers we rely on for our hobby, purely on the grounds that they sold the components to make flash. Some were driven right out of business, some so restricted that their business is only a fraction what it was, and some so burdened with legal fees that we're all paying the penalty in higher prices. Suppressing discussion of it was simple self-defense.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Plus, it must be said, a few years ago the CPSC was persecuting - no other word for it - the suppliers we rely on for our hobby, purely on the grounds that they sold the components to make flash. Some were driven right out of business, some so restricted that their business is only a fraction what it was, and some so burdened with legal fees that we're all paying the penalty in higher prices. Suppressing discussion of it was simple self-defense.

 

How was it - "land of the free"? That's worse than Europe

[taiwanluthiers]

Ever since 9/11 and the rushed passage of the "Patriot Act", America ceased to be "Land of the free".

[Peret]

How was it - "land of the free"? That's worse than Europe

 

In the Land of the Free, we have the best government money can buy. All the authorities with power to regulate pyrotechnics are run by political appointees. Not career civil servants, not elected officials, but political hacks given their positions as a reward for political services rendered (or donations made). These include state fire marshals, and of course all the heads of the federal alphabet agencies like the CPSC. They answer to nobody and, with a few exceptions, have no oversight except the masters they served who put them in place. They make up their own rules as it suits them, so if they want to conduct themselves like medieval feudal lords and sell favors to line their pockets there's nothing the peasants can do about it. The only thing you can hope for is a change of party in government, so that the spoils will be divided among a different squabbling pack of political toadies and hopefully the next feudal overlord won't be as venal as the last one.

 

The worst persecution of pyrotechnicians by the CPSC took place under the chairmanship of Harold Stratton, a lawyer, appointed by Bush in 2002. Though appointed to serve for 12 years, Stratton resigned in 2006, for reasons that have never been explained, and returned to private life. Stratton's tenure was marked by criticism from consumer groups, which asserted he was too close to industry. "Under Chairman Stratton, the Consumer Product Safety Commission has been moving in the wrong direction, to the detriment of its mission," said Janell Mayo Duncan, a senior lawyer for the Consumers' Union. "His tenure has been a very big disappointment." One specific knock: The CSPC's regulations during Stratton's tenure sought to preempt state regulation and product-liability lawsuits. (WSJ). There was also some mumbling about corruption and Chinese sheet rock - was this anything to with Stratton? No, nothing to see here, move along. He was replaced by one Nancy Nord, also a Bush-appointed lawyer, of whom Wikipedia says During her time at the CPSC as Acting Chairman, Nord came under scrutiny by Members of Congress and the media for the agency's large number of recalled toys that violated the federal lead paint ban. These recalls lead to the passage of the CPSIA in 2008. Nord came under further attack when she raised questions about the wisdom of certain provisions of the legislation as it was being considered by Congress. She has been criticized for being a defender of industry and for slow interpretation and implementation of the CPSIA. Nord seemed less hostile towards pyro than Stratton - probably because she was distracted by having to fight off Congressional oversight - but the CPSC was still verbally aggressive and threatening, although they didn't send in any more SWAT teams to knock down chemical suppliers' doors at 5am. The Reign of Terror only ended when Obama was elected and replaced Nord as chairperson with an actual, you know, scientist.

[imisscookie]

Thanks Peret. My first post here was rather anxious sounding, regarding purchase of small amounts of stuff including 3 flash components after I read of CPSC raiding and stuff which actually happened years ago. Its not natural for me to think of government becoming less restrictive but maybe it has afterall, I do own guns and mags which were banned until '04, and have a permit to carry a gun. Although no atf pyro license, I have chemistry degree.

 

These privileges also influence caution to keep my chem hobby small, I more likely would be bothered by state (the local city police would surely bust me if they could, they are trouble and corrupt, and framing has happened). Bottle rockets illegal here. I'm trying to learn more beauty-makers (my next chem buy will be a blue color for stars like copper sulfate). Thought I'd be put on some watch list for kper, and maybe I am but I'm in rural area and try to follow atf rules about 'magazine' (my mix area isn't residential) and using within 24hrs without public transport (I go by ATV further into woods so I don't disturb, and closer to stone quarry occasional low pitch rumbles.

 

If I may be more direct, I have had contradictory results adding sulfur to the standard mix, slightly adjusting to lower the Al, since not enough oxzer will create smoke waste. I won't discuss ratios for respect of rules, but they were quite similar. One seemed faster with S and louder in 1/4inchx2inch, the rest have been slower and maybe no difference or just smokier with S. A few quick milligram level mixes seemed to show that adding S usually slows it and makes smoke. Mg turnings ignite fine with both and create burning white streaks out 10ft or so (fire warning- i also added droplets of water to some burning and smoldering Mg bits- these rip apart H2O into oxidizer and fuel, quite noticeable way to see water burn).

 

I did a few small mixes, the standard al+kper with charcoal, Mg turnings fine and coarse, sulfur, powdered sugar, glass and/or flour; tried to keep fuel vs ox balanced. Now for my safety test. tools: 6000 volt bug zapper, hammer, lasers which can burn, magnifying glass (+ sun), standard and torch lighter. Purpose was to test safety (sensitivity to friction, shock, heat). My secondary goal was finding shock sensitive mix for exploding target, although my usual 3-mix was successful with 9mm, it wasn't with 22lr.

 

humidity 60% . i'll summarize, as this is already tiring my eyes:

I found that creating some dust clouds by dropping the mixes and waving the zapper around could create some sparks but they didn't ignite to the mix, even when right up against. The mix with S was most sensitive to friction when dragging hammer in scraping motion across rock; the standard mix and sugar mix about the same and it took a few scrapes until it quietly but quickly popped a fraction of the pile (spread between uneven surface by then). when hitting with hammer, it was rare and seemingly random but after a few hits, but some did pop like a cap gun.

 

The sugar mix was shocking in an enclosed empty medical tape roll (picture toilet paper roll 3x smaller) thin paper glued each end.. it was a big BOOM which i only had expected a star type shower of sparks from. I'm not sure if it was comparable to standard, but likely was. I'm guessing even slower mixes could create just as big of a report as fast flash if in thicker cardboard. Perhaps if too fast, slow is better?

 

I'll stop before bending rules here but end with a shocker; I was surprised electricity didn't work in my test but I'm sure there are circumstances it would... The Rockets' Red Glare, Bodies Bursting in Air. Graphic but detailed, and I haven't mixed flash since reading this 2 weeks ago and decided to cancel the idea of adding a lb of kclor to my collection.

[Swede]

It's good to re-read this thread.

 

Unlike most, I did not start with FP, but I learned to respect it after a couple of grams rolled in a ziploc bag burst with a neighborhood-rocking blast that was easily 50X what I expected. I like the binary method in a PAPER or cardboard tube. I don't think FP and plastics go together very well.

 

In all my past reading, one FP story stood out to me. I don't remember where I read it, but it went something like this:

 

A big fireworks maker used to use 55 gallon steel drums to make FP. They'd load the drum with the powder, then set a guy to rolling it around the yard. One day, he shows up to work early, decides to make some FP. Loads up a drum - the WRONG drum. It had some sort of remnants of abrasive in it, I believe sand or dirt. He was merrily rolling his drum with 40 or 60 lb of FP when it let go. Needless to say, he was killed instantly.

 

The thought of rolling a DRUM of FP around is just.... beyond nuts.

[Peret]

The thought of rolling a DRUM of FP around is just.... beyond nuts.

 

How about the thought of mixing a 50 gallon drum of FP ... with a paint stirrer in the chuck of an electric drill ... you know, the kind with a sparking commutator ... in a confined underground room?

 

It happened in 1983 in Tennessee. At least 10 people died, the bodies decapitated and thrown 100 yards through the air.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

You know I hear the term "illegal firework factory" thrown around all the time, both in the US and in Taiwan (where there used to be many illegal firework factories that blew up in the news). What do they mean by that?

 

Does it only apply to people who manufacture (often unsafe) fireworks to sell for profit, who aren't licensed to do so, or does that term also apply to hobbyists who manufactures firework for their own pleasure (not for sale)?

[brimstoned]

That is SO crazy...I sweat making an ounce nitrate flash for aerial stuff.

Fifty-gallon drum and paint mixer...no pain I guess.

[taiwanluthiers]

50 pounds, electric drill mixer, and according to the video, chlorate/sulfur based flash mix! However much time the owner got, he deserved it.

[Swede]

I missed the chlorate/sulfur part in the video, but regardless of the composition, such a setup is a death-wish. The same thing would have happened if he was mixing a green BP mix. Those drills spark like crazy.

 

Ground salutes and M-80's have no place in pyrotechnics. Are such devices legally sold anywhere in the world any more?

[taiwanluthiers]

in Taiwan, a salute that makes a really big boom is legally sold here, although not very available. I believe that salute has the same power and content of a M-80. It's known as "Big dragon cannon" (the word being used for any exploding fireworks in Chinese is the same for cannon). I have never seen one however I am told they make some sparks then makes a big bang that is as loud as a 3" shell going off on the ground. Flash content doesn't seem very well regulated in Taiwan, a firecracker I broke apart has about .3g of flash in it.

 

M-80 like devices are also sold in many third world countries like Mexico, where the law may forbid them but enforcement is lacking.

Edited September 20, 2012 by taiwanluthiers

[Mumbles]

To my knowledge the Czech Republic and some other eastern European coutries like Slovakia or Slovenia still allow the sale of large salutes. There was a member here for a while that did reviews of them. I got on his or her case, but upon further investigation I found that they were actually legally manufactured and sold.

[ANFO]

Salutes are legal here, all the way up to ones that are the size of road flares. During festive seasons it sounds like a World War two air raid..