Shellac?

[Ventsi]

I really need some Red Gum, but I can't really deal with the shipping charges or wait for it to get here either.

I have heard that shellac makes an excellent replacement for it so I'm thinking of getting/making some.

 

I'm thinking of going out and buying a can of Bulls Eye Shellac, they state its 100% Shellac dissolved in Alcohol, nothing else. This stuff:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/13/13cdc247-11b9-477b-920d-9bb589099e3a_400.jpg

 

They sell two types, Amber and Clear, which would be preferred?

 

And last, is this even going to be possible? I'm thinking of drying it and then powdering it, any tips in drying it out?

Edited January 19, 2010 by Ventsi

[Richtee]

I really need some Red Gum, but I can't really deal with the shipping charges or wait for it to get here either.

I have heard that shellac makes an excellent replacement for it so I'm thinking of getting/making some.

 

I'm thinking of going out and buying a can of Bulls Eye Shellac, they state its 100% Shellac dissolved in Alcohol, nothing else. This stuff:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/13/13cdc247-11b9-477b-920d-9bb589099e3a_400.jpg

 

They sell two types, Amber and Clear, which would be preferred?

 

And last, is this even going to be possible? I'm thinking of drying it and then powdering it, any tips in drying it out?

VERY volatile solvent, Basically methyl I think? It'll dry outside in a pan pretty quick. You COULD cook it- but why risk it.

[TheSidewinder]

I do wonder what is the actual dry shellac content. The amount of solvent is irrelevant.

 

Does the label give any details?

 

And how, exactly, do you plan to re-powder it?

 

I'm betting it can't be milled. Too damn sticky.

[Ventsi]

From the MSDS:

 

Ethyl Alcohol

Isopropyl Alcohol

Methyl Isobutyl Ketone 1%

Doesn't state the amount of Shellac though, bummer.

 

Thats all I got, I assume there will be something like 10-40% of shellac in there, just based on the viscosity

 

Its cps is about 300 , something along the lines of SAE 20 motor oil.

 

As far as powdering it, I was thinking of drying it completely, then a little more in low heat oven to drive out any remaining solvents, then I would thrown it in the freezer, coffee mill it, or just throw it in some ice-cold water, then dump the water and shellac into a blender and keep going till I've got myself a smoothie, then I'd just dry the water out...?

[scarbelly]

Do you even need to powder it? Could you sort of just leave it as dried out chunks for weighing purposes and then dissolve it again for use in stars? It would then act as a binder as well?

[Bayarea510]

If you REALLY need shellac or red gum shoot me a pm, I from the bay (stay in sac now) and will be headed out there tomorrow and could help you out with a lb or 2.

 

George

[xetap]

Shellac liquid is sold by a dilution ratio of "X pounds cut"- "X" is the amount of dry shellac in pounds per gallon of solvent (usually alcohol, primarily). 3 pound cut = 3 pounds shellac/1 gallon solvent.

 

You CAN dry the shellac back out of the solvent. However, if the dried layer is more than 0.020"- 0.030" thick, it is to 'plastic' to get into a powdered form. So you need a LARGE area of very shallow liquid to end up w/a usable product.

 

Hopefully the offer above will result in you not having to deal w/this procedure!

[Bonny]

If you are using it as the binder as well as a fuel, I would try using as a solution. You just need to get an estimate of the concentration... maybe measure out a small sample, evaporate and weigh.

[Swede]

You CAN dry the shellac back out of the solvent. However, if the dried layer is more than 0.020"- 0.030" thick, it is to 'plastic' to get into a powdered form. So you need a LARGE area of very shallow liquid to end up w/a usable product.

 

Agree, and this is important. It'll be the difference between success and a sticky mess.

 

I think you could do this by unrolling about 3 feet of non-stick aluminum foil, and creating a little rim so as to create a large but shallow pan. Pour the shellac onto the foil, spread it out, and position a fan over it. It'll dry as if it was a regular brushed-on coating, except a bit thick.

 

You might want to test a tiny bit first to make sure you can peel the foil off the dried shellac. The drier the shellac, the more likely you are to successfully peel it off. Once peeled, let the flakes and sections dry more under moving air and maybe a bit of heat, then break them up.

[xetap]

If you are using it as the binder as well as a fuel, I would try using as a solution. You just need to get an estimate of the concentration... maybe measure out a small sample, evaporate and weigh.

Commercial shellac "paint" will already have a 'cut' designation.

 

How many ever pounds per gallon = 'cut', as in 2 pound cut, etc..

 

Easily converted from pounds/gall. to grams/ounce, etc. for whatever it is you're working with.

[xetap]

It'll be the difference between success and a sticky mess.

 

I think you could do this by unrolling about 3 feet of non-stick aluminum foil, and creating a little rim so as to create a large but shallow pan.

Sounds like a plan!

 

I used a large 15" x 10" shallow Pyrex baking dish- like for a casserole or something. I also force-dried it w/a 75w light bulb under the pan.

 

It takes a few "runs" to get enough to work with, and I wouldn't use this way if I needed a lot, but for smaller scale work, it will do OK.

 

If done 'correctly', the shellac will come off when scraped w/a razor blade in a fine powder. Too thick and it will not flake as it's removed and you will have a sheet of plastic that will need to be tossed back into the can to dissolve.

 

But nothing is wasted other than the solvent. Either it comes up and is usable (sometimes w/a bit more processing if your flakes are too big for your liking) or it gets redissolved to use over.

 

EDIT_ I remember using a teflon coated skillet to dry some on. It stuck as if there were no non-stick surface at all. So if you're going to use the foil, Swede, try a small batch to see- I'm sure you would anyway, but wanted to mention it just in case someone else tried it...

Edited January 19, 2010 by xetap

[Ventsi]

If you REALLY need shellac or red gum shoot me a pm, I from the bay (stay in sac now) and will be headed out there tomorrow and could help you out with a lb or 2.

 

George

 

 

Not sure if you got my PM's or not but I'll take you up on that offer.

 

Though I will definitely try this method for making Shellac in the future.

[longwaytofall]

I am also in the bay and might be able to help you out with some red gum. I am on the peninsula, where are you?

[a_bab]

What if you just figure out the shellac content by measuring the weight of say 1 ml, bone dry it and see the difference?

 

Once you know that you just treat the stuff like NC laquer, making cut stars. If the putty needs to be dried, just do this. Add more solvent if it's too crumbly.

 

Apparently the chinese do it in this way with novolac resin.

[scarbelly]

So apparently there are a lot of us in the bay huh?

[longwaytofall]

I guess so. Whereabouts are you located? It would be cool to get a group together sometime, or get some bulk chem orders going.

[xetap]

What if you just figure out the shellac content by measuring the weight of say 1 ml, bone dry it and see the difference?

With shellac used to finish wood, etc., the "CUT" is what determines the concentration of shellac to the solvent. This should be clearly stated on the container.

 

One pound cut = one pound of shellac per one gallon of solvent.

 

Two pound cut = two pounds of shellac per gallon of solvent.

 

Etc.

 

SO:

 

One pound cut = 120 mg shellac per ml.

 

Two pound cut = 240 mg/ml.

 

Etc.

 

In a case where the cut isn't known, dry at least a 10 ml sample (preferably larger), or have a scale that will accurately measure milligrams.

Edited January 28, 2010 by xetap