Ball Mill vs Coffee Grinder

[eddiegnz1]

instead of ball milling, can I just use a number of different coffee grinders to separately grind each chemical to a very fine dust, before I mix them by either the diaper method or mesh screens. Those little blade coffee grinders work really well for Potasium Nitrate and Sulfur. Obviously I would never grind chems that have been mixed together (each chem would have its own dedicated coffee grinder with the name of the chem labeled on the coffee grinder). So do you think I can use that approach to avoid ever having to use a ball mill...do pyro hobbyists use ball mills in order to produce larger batches or what is the real reason for a ball mill?

[Twotails]

you realy need a ball mill, its cuts down time and cost, a harbor freight rocktumber/ballmill can be bought for $20-$40, As apposed to a coffee grinder thats about $10 per grinder. also some compositions must be ball milled.

[TheEskimo]

Blender vs. Ballmill

Blender

--can do small batches.

--is quick

--good for beginners

--can produce serviceable BP

--good for testing comps

--easy to get

Ballmill

--can do larger loads

--can produce stronger BP

--can mass-mill chemicals

--lasts longer than coffee grinder

--can be built by yourself

--can be operated autonomously for hours/days

I started out with a coffee grinder, but soon realized that a ball mill was the way to go. When you get into this hobby, you start making pounds of comps at a time ,and a coffee grinder just won't cut it. For your purposes, as a beginner, coffee grinders are a good starting point. Soon, you will want want to move up to a ballmill.

Just remember the do's and don't's of coffee grinders.

[scarbelly]

In my experience, a coffee grinder just won't get you the same sort of fineness of chemicals that a ball mill will. Finer powders corresponds to faster black powder. In addition, the time you spend actively using a ball mill (setting it up, loading, unloading) is very little compared to that of using a coffee grinder.

[Mumbles]

What everyone else has said is more or less true. You might be able to make servicable BP with coffee ground and screened meal but it will never be as fast or as well integrated as milled powders.

 

There is some thought that the nitrate and sulfur get beaten into the pores or surface of the charoal. Some agree, some disagree. There are some experiments where each individual chemical is milled for what they would normally mill BP for, and then screened through 100 or 200 mesh screens and processed as normal. The powder produced from this, while good, was still not as good as the milled variety. Milling just gets everything extremely fine, and extremely integrated.

 

It really comes down to personal preference. Find what works for you, and stick with it. I am a perfectionist, so I throw tweak practially indefinitely in the mix as well. Milling is very convenient for me. I can toss the coarse chemicals into the jar, and let it run while I do other things like cut stars or assemble shells. While I am working, I might as well be making more BP.

 

It might just be my KNO3, but it really cakes in the coffee mill, possibly due to a mix of moisture and heat.

[Arthur]

Coffee grinder BP is fine TIL you have tried ball milled BP! Ball milled BP is so much better it really is a different product. Don't waste your pyro time doing things that are not going to help!

 

Get a ball mill preferably with a rubber drum, put some lead media in and set it running. The rubber drum helps keep the noise down which helps keep the neighbours ans LEOs out of your hobby. A large diameter mill will mill better than a small drum.

[Bonny]

As everyone said, get or make a ballmill. Coffee grinders are handy for individual chems that will be screened together in comps, but for BP I don't think you would ever produce as good a product as with a ballmill. As Mumbles said, load it up and do something else while it runs.

[NightHawkInLight]

All the facts have been mentioned, but I think it's also important to get your priorities straight. Yes, absolutely a ball mill makes faster BP than coffee grinders, but you may be doing just fine with what you have. If you're happy with how you can lift and break shells it might be better to put your ball mill fund toward other things. You will probably find you really would like a ball mill when you see how they work firsthand, but for now you would likely be more happy with another pound or two of titanium and that barium nitrate you've been looking at.

 

Yeah, you may be able to get a decent mill with half a turds capacity for $40 if you're lucky, but you also have to weigh in the price of media. Nowadays that can cost nearly as much as the mill itself.

 

Up to you if you really care about making your BP faster right at this moment, and if you have the funds. My advice if you do put money into a mill: Get one big enough that it leaves you room to grow. If you're anything like me you'll be wining about having to run it 3 or 4 times for a single shell soon enough.

[Swede]

One other thing... ball milling is more consistent. BP batch "A" if milled for 8 hours is going to be identical to BP batch "B". And the batches can be a kilo or more. Coffee mills simply cannot replicate this performance.

 

Coffee mills have motors that are rated as temporary rather than continuous duty. They will heat very quickly to frightening temps. The seals at the blade shaft are designed to keep coarse coffee grounds out of the motor section, and will NOT seal properly with the 400 mesh stuff you'd want from many operations.

 

By the time you are done collecting coffee grinders, you'll have 4 to 6 for the various chemicals. That adds up, price-wise.

 

Finally, the convenience factor. With a proper ball mill, and a correct jar and media, you can load it with KNO3 prills, lumpy sulfur, and charcoal nuggets the size of your fingers or larger, and after a few hours, it'll all be 600 mesh or finer ultra-fast BP.

 

I like the idea of separate coffee mills for ammonium perchlorate, and potassium chlorate. This will keep those two critical chems separate from all your others. Or, you can have separate jars and media for those, but that can be expensive.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Swede

[eddiegnz1]

you realy need a ball mill, its cuts down time and cost, a harbor freight rocktumber/ballmill can be bought for $20-$40, As apposed to a coffee grinder thats about $10 per grinder. also some compositions must be ball milled.

The Harbor Freight Tumbler says 3 Lbs capacity but the size is 4.5" x 4.75". That's a pretty darn small jar?. I'm just struggling with the size of it and can't imagine how much chemical I can do in one batch. Seems like maybe 100 grams at a time? Is there a bigger ball mill out there that can be bought for less than $50.00?

[Mumbles]

You can do 200g in one of those harbor freight mills.

 

Unfortunately, if you want a larger mill for less than $50, you're going to have to make it. Otherwise, you're probably looking at around $150-200.

[Bonny]

The Harbor Freight Tumbler says 3 Lbs capacity but the size is 4.5" x 4.75". That's a pretty darn small jar?. I'm just struggling with the size of it and can't imagine how much chemical I can do in one batch. Seems like maybe 100 grams at a time? Is there a bigger ball mill out there that can be bought for less than $50.00?

 

If the mill can hold it, you can use a large peanut butter container. I mill 500g batches in them all the time. It is far from optimum, but works. I have done much larger batches and just run longer, but 500g seems good. They only last for maybe a dozen runs, but are easy to get. Put a strip of tape around the lid to stop leakage.

[eddiegnz1]

You can do 200g in one of those harbor freight mills.

 

Unfortunately, if you want a larger mill for less than $50, you're going to have to make it. Otherwise, you're probably looking at around $150-200.

Ok, lets say I get the Harbor freight mill and fill it half way with 0.50 caliber (1/2") lead balls. Will it get the BP as fine as any other ball mill in 3 hours or would it take longer? I guess my question has to do with the effectiveness as compared to very high end ball mills costing $300 or more. Can I even use (1/2") lead balls or must I find smaller media?

[dagabu]

Ok, lets say I get the Harbor freight mill and fill it half way with 0.50 caliber (1/2") lead balls. Will it get the BP as fine as any other ball mill in 3 hours or would it take longer? I guess my question has to do with the effectiveness as compared to very high end ball mills costing $300 or more. Can I even use (1/2") lead balls or must I find smaller media?

 

Eddie,

 

I bought one of these:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/15-lb-cap-1-gallon-Roc...=item3ca45d886e

 

I think they are exceptional in quality and build. I also make and sell ball mill jars for these units so you can have more then one charged and ready to go or one for chlorate or whatever.

 

PM me if you need any more information.

[Swede]

Ok, lets say I get the Harbor freight mill and fill it half way with 0.50 caliber (1/2") lead balls. Will it get the BP as fine as any other ball mill in 3 hours or would it take longer? I guess my question has to do with the effectiveness as compared to very high end ball mills costing $300 or more. Can I even use (1/2") lead balls or must I find smaller media?

 

It will take longer. You get what you pay for. There is no way a $39 rock tumbler is going to perform like a 1/2 HP mill with a 2 gallon jar loaded with stainless or zirconia media.

 

But who cares if it takes 3 hours or 12? Or 18? Mill it long enough and it will reach a point where there is no improvement. The trick is to identify how long you need to mill with a given comp and ball mill setup.

 

I have and use my HF rock tumbler despite 2 other mills. It's nice for small batches. If you want 100 grams for a test, who wants to charge up a 1 gallon container for that small amount?

 

I recommend hardened lead. If you are using soft lead musket balls (and most are soft lead; if you can score it with your thumbnail, it's soft), you WILL put several grams of lead into a given kilo of BP. Who wants to huff lead-laden smoke? Lead oxides and fine-particulate metallic lead... yuck. The sweet smell will be gone because you'll KNOW it's an unhealthy hash of heavy metal + normal BP gases.

[Mumbles]

In the harbor freight .50 caliber lead balls are fine, although hardened is better as swede has pointed out. It takes me 8-10 hours to get good BP out of one with willow charcoal. Others recommend longer or shorter times, but 8-10hr is what I settled on for the balancing of quality and time.

[georgietiger]

i bought the Large Ball mill from Pyrodirect.com.

And some ball mill jars from a guy on Passfire. they are quite nice.

use a different one for fuels and oxidizers. he will paint them different colors too.

 

gt

[NightHawkInLight]

i bought the Large Ball mill from Pyrodirect.com.

And some ball mill jars from a guy on Passfire. they are quite nice.

use a different one for fuels and oxidizers. he will paint them different colors too.

 

gt

Good to see you here GT. PyroDirect does have some great mills. Sturdy, and not a bad price for the size. There are smaller more affordable mills out there for a beginner if need be.

[runvs00]

Good to see you here GT. PyroDirect does have some great mills. Sturdy, and not a bad price for the size. There are smaller more affordable mills out there for a beginner if need be.

 

Can you vouch for the ones on harbor frieght being fairly durable??

[Mumbles]

The belts on the harbor freight ones are crap, but if you replace it with an o-ring or something, they're pretty good for the price.

[Ventsi]

I have to say they are crap all together. I have the 3lb model and damn near everything has failed. Belt, pulleys, rollers....

I managed to pretty much rebuild every single part so that it doesn't fail in the future, for pyro at least get the 2 drum one and run it one drum at a time, or just make a mill of your own.

[firetech]

I'm using a 6lb with one drum on it. Turned with rubber bands as the belts. I find a few of them, if they are tight, work better than the belt.

[xetap]

I put a piece of heater hose over the drive roller to increase the RPM and use belts made from a vacuum cleaner belt that was cut into three, width-wise.

 

Don't over load them too much. It takes longer- but if you're not in a hurry, or need much material all at once- they will work.

 

I still use mine occasionally when I have a small test batch to run and don't want to mess w/readjusting my big mill's adjustable volume jars.

[Pyrophysics]

I like coffee grinders for breaking up small amounts of lumpy chemicals. I used one for ages to quickly grind up charcoal sticks into fine powder, and recently discovered that they work well for clumped oxidizers such as Nitrates and Perchlorates.

 

Problem is, you can only grind about 50g of chems at a time, and the motors heat up quickly and will burn out if you use them repeatedly without letting them cool down. It is also very dangerous to mill black powder in a coffee grinder, as the grinding chamber is not perfectly sealed, and if you're grinding for minutes at a time as would be required for making quality BP, tiny amounts of powder will eventually work their way down to the sparking motor.

 

For larger batches and black powder manufacturing, a ball mill is a must. My mill uses a 1/3HP motor, and will turn a fully loaded 6" jar with ease, making 600g of fast burning BP in 3 hours. Hard to beat that kind of production.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Pyrophysics

[dagabu]

i bought the Large Ball mill from Pyrodirect.com.

And some ball mill jars from a guy on Passfire. they are quite nice.

use a different one for fuels and oxidizers. he will paint them different colors too.

 

gt

 

Some guy? Dang, I thought I had a little more notoriety then that!!

 

D