Pliable black-/quickmatch

[dagabu]

Did I talked about chinese quickmatch? How on earth do you know I'm talking about chinese stuff?

 

If I talk about "commercial" I'm talk about blackmatch which can be bought per length or is already attached to shells. Made in a factory for profit purposes.

 

I haven't said you were telling crap, I'm just irritated you're telling my advices aren't good, just because maybe your skills aren't ok.

If you were experienced enough with this matter you should know a 20% AG solution wouldn't make 20% AG blackmatch.

 

If I see lots of white residue after burning some BP or BM, I'm sure its KNO3.

 

 

 

Just show some nice shells you've made yourself, maybe then I'll take your post a bit more serious.

I don't care about who's shooting a million shells, this is a forum particular for amateur pyrotechnics ( guys who do not make fireworks for a living). APC remember.

 

You probably want to have the last word on this, well go ahead.

 

 

@everybody except dabagu: The 20% solution must be made a view hours or a day before using it, it dissolves quite slowly, You can store the solution in a pet bottle for more than a year.

 

Perhaps you already know this and that is why you do so; if you write in a public forum that you dare someone else to have the last word if they wish, then you insult the other person by not allowing them rebuttal. If you wish, I will leave you to your deceptions and misinformation and your insistent bullying of those on this forum.

 

I have posted shells, rockets, materials and finished product on Pyrobin both in the private and public areas. Please view them at your leisure.

 

I wish you well in your endeavors, and hope that your inflexability and unwillingness to learn new and different ways of making pyrotechnics does not hold others back from making beautiful displays for all to enjoy.

 

It is to bad that you didn't comment on anything else I wrote about except "commercial blackmatch". I believe it was you that first mentioned it and then recanted.

 

Good luck,

Stay Green

Dave

[dagabu]

Back to business:

 

As amateurs, we should understand that there is a lot of misinformation brought this forum. Both Swede and Mumbles being two of the smartest people I know and FAR eclipse my puny intelligence and will be able to direct ALL of us as to the issue of weather 20% of Gum Arabic will in fact detract from BL or not as well as if I an in fact leading you all astray.

 

You all have a choice, you do not need to be part of a disagreement, you can speak your minds without fear here.

 

Thank you for listening,

Dave

[Ventsi]

Dave, I'll check Michaels and Arron's Brothers for some better string/yarn today. No more twine.

 

As far as the BP slurry the match has to pass through, short of CMC is there anything else I can use in order to keep the particles suspended? Water soluble preferably, I'm thinking that using a small percentage of wheat paste would help, but not as much as I would like.

 

Also, for making Quickmatch. Do you use one strand of string per strand of BM? Or do you feel 2-3 gives it more structural strength?

[dagabu]

Dave, I'll check Michaels and Arron's Brothers for some better string/yarn today. No more twine.

 

As far as the BP slurry the match has to pass through, short of CMC is there anything else I can use in order to keep the particles suspended? Water soluble preferably, I'm thinking that using a small percentage of wheat paste would help, but not as much as I would like.

 

Also, for making Quickmatch. Do you use one strand of string per strand of BM? Or do you feel 2-3 gives it more structural strength?

 

Great questions! Anyone else want to chime in?

 

IMHO- CMC is unique in its ability to suspend particles in the slurry. It is used widely in commercial food production as in puddings, yogurts and such since it does such a wonderful job of keeping it all mixed up together and not settling out.

 

Lets back up a step: Binders vs suspension agents. Dextrin, wheat paste and Gum Arabic are binders, CMC is a suspension agent. The other best way to suspend BP in a solution is to agitate it constantly with mechanical means, i.e. a stir stick or beater if you will.

 

As far as black match goes, I prefer a single strand of 6 ply like Peaches and Cream 100% cotton Mercerized yarn though since I picked up a spool of #10 crochet thread today, I may change my mind!

 

Black match used in a pipe serves to propagate the flame from end to end lighting the mode of passfire either spolette or time fuse. As long as it doesn't part when it is used to carry a shell, it will be fine.

[Mumbles]

I was trying to figure out if he meant he was adding 20% gum arabic dry weight, wetting the BP with a 20% GA solution, or using 20% of a gum arabic solution at first.

 

20% dry weight is getting up there for what they use for Beraq timings and would certainly make rockhard match, but probably rather slow burning. Using a 20% GA solution to wet the BP, this would correspond probably to around 8% GA dry weight in the final match. This would probably slow the match some what, but also make rock hard match. Using 20% of a standard GA solution doesn't seem like it would get the BP wet enough to adhere.

 

I would think he meant he was using a 20% GA solution to wet it. It wouldn't be my preference, but I am sure it works.

 

Ventsi, I wouldn't worry about the CMC. I've always just used straight dextrin, and kneeded the Blackmatch in the slurry. The kneeding keeps everything suspended. I suppose if you wanted to do a pull coating and don't want to be scraping black powder from under your fingernails for the next 3 weeks wheat paste would work. A stir every so often wouldn't hurt either.

[Ventsi]

IMHO- CMC is unique in its ability to suspend particles in the slurry. It is used widely in commercial food production as in puddings, yogurts and such since it does such a wonderful job of keeping it all mixed up together and not settling out.

 

Тrue! Peanut butter for example: The organic stuff does not have any CMC in and after a while the oil and solids separate making it a PITA. The other stuff like Skippy does and doesn't need to be stirred.

 

Do you guys think upping the dextrin % to something like 6-7% and then some 3-4% wheat paste will be over kill?I want match that will not flake apart. Especially for cross matching.

[Aquarius]

Well, the hornest nests seems to have been shaken...

No, seriously, I'm looking for a way to keep the blackmatch/quickmatch from breaking and flaking. I make mine with the pull-method, and it makes good match, using knitting yarn made of 100 % cotton. Four of them go in the device (wouldn't call it a machine, it's fairly uncomplicated) and gets twisted together and then dried.

It burns quite fierce.

But I'm looking for a way to make them more pliable, as the topic says. And thanks to Dave, I'll have a shot using CMC. But it will not make it more pliable, will it?

[dagabu]

Тrue! Peanut butter for example: The organic stuff does not have any CMC in and after a while the oil and solids separate making it a PITA. The other stuff like Skippy does and doesn't need to be stirred.

 

Do you guys think upping the dextrin % to something like 6-7% and then some 3-4% wheat paste will be over kill?I want match that will not flake apart. Especially for cross matching.

 

Ventsi,

 

I wouldn't, Mumbles says to use dextrin only, I respect his opinion too much to argue, I would stay with 4-5%. Can I send you a sample of dex to try? I think you will be a believer when you see what it does to the coating. It does not become rock hard, it is stiff like dex alone but it does not flake off.

 

You only add 1% or less to the dry chemicals and it goes a long way!

[dagabu]

Well, the hornest nests seems to have been shaken...

No, seriously, I'm looking for a way to keep the blackmatch/quickmatch from breaking and flaking. I make mine with the pull-method, and it makes good match, using knitting yarn made of 100 % cotton. Four of them go in the device (wouldn't call it a machine, it's fairly uncomplicated) and gets twisted together and then dried.

It burns quite fierce.

But I'm looking for a way to make them more pliable, as the topic says. And thanks to Dave, I'll have a shot using CMC. But it will not make it more pliable, will it?

 

Yes and no, it will be as stiff as dextrin (CMC does not make it stiff) only but will not flake or leave gaps in the BP coating.

[Mumbles]

In that case, I am of the opinion you should send some beer money my way

 

Just because I wouldn't/don't do it is no reason not to try it. Like I said, when kneeding there is no reason to use wheat paste or anything to keep the BP in suspension. But if you are using a pull method you may want to try. I've been trying to think of thickeners. CMC is one of the cheapest. If you have it, I bet SGRS would make quite a thick suspended mix. There is always guar gum, which some healthfood stores will sell. Wheat paste may keep it all in solution, but it may not be all that flexible once dry. It's kind of crispy when dry in my experience.

 

If you want to try CMC, Underground gadgets has it at a pretty good price.

http://www.undergroundgadgets.com/shop/pro...ed58b4619f5bc78

[dagabu]

In that case, I am of the opinion you should send some beer money my way

 

Just because I wouldn't/don't do it is no reason not to try it. Like I said, when kneeding there is no reason to use wheat paste or anything to keep the BP in suspension. But if you are using a pull method you may want to try. I've been trying to think of thickeners. CMC is one of the cheapest. If you have it, I bet SGRS would make quite a thick suspended mix. There is always guar gum, which some healthfood stores will sell. Wheat paste may keep it all in solution, but it may not be all that flexible once dry. It's kind of crispy when dry in my experience.

 

If you want to try CMC, Underground gadgets has it at a pretty good price.

http://www.undergroundgadgets.com/shop/pro...ed58b4619f5bc78

 

I got 10# from Phil last year and I think it will last longer then I am alive. Beer money? Really? How about coffee? I just got in from the shop and roasted a pound of Sumatra Mandheling Harimau Tiger.

 

Want a sample?

 

I just looked at my chems, I have a pound of SGRS but no Guar Gum. Looks like more testing!!

Edited January 9, 2010 by dagabu

[dagabu]

I make mine with the pull-method

 

I do to, I make about 300' per session and was going to make some today and record it but my KNO3 solution is frozen solid!

 

Meh,

 

My machine

 

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/dsc_9577.jpg

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/dsc_9588.jpg

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/dsc_9576.jpg

Edited January 10, 2010 by dagabu

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

If you want to try CMC, Underground gadgets has it at a pretty good price.

http://www.undergroundgadgets.com/shop/pro...ed58b4619f5bc78

 

CMC is also sold as wallpaper glue, it's a bit more expencive but you won't need that much and you don't have to pay shipping costs.

[swervedriver]

Man dagabu, when I wind mine up on my rack I invariably make a bigger mess than you do in that pic, lol. Also, when I wind them that close together, some strings always get stuck together and I have to separate them which kind of messes them up a little bit in that spot but they seem to work fine. You're better at it than I am heh

 

What's the 3 round bar guide thing, a "wringer"?

[dagabu]

Man dagabu, when I wind mine up on my rack I invariably make a bigger mess than you do in that pic, lol. Also, when I wind them that close together, some strings always get stuck together and I have to separate them which kind of messes them up a little bit in that spot but they seem to work fine. You're better at it than I am heh

 

What's the 3 round bar guide thing, a "wringer"?

 

Swerve,

 

I have to admit that I took pictures of a "perfect rack" to post, I too get some that stick to each other. I found the secret to be to make sure the frame is square and strong so that as you wind the BM around it that it doesn't sag under the tension. That causes the first strings to loosen and stick to the other strings like you said.

 

This rack though, came out great, I did not touch any BM once, I just wound the rack till it was full and cut the string and let it fall on the floor. I have a steel 1 gallon 'burn bucket' that I have to get rid of this spring full of ends and bad BM and the like.

 

I found that there were several issues with making good BM fast. The first was the tendency of the black powder to fall out of suspension, I fixed that with the a bit of a manufacturers help and added 1% CMC to the slurry.

 

The second issue was the slurry drying out when pulling a whole rack of BM. I solved this by prewhetting my string with a KNO3 saturated solution and running it through a die to squeeze off extra fluid leaving the string very damp but not dripping wet. This kept the strung from pulling all the fluid out and leaving the particles behind in the container.

 

The third issue was with finding white spots on the string after pulling it. The white spots were sections of string where the slurry didn't stick to the string. This was maddening! I tried several different ways of solving the issue such as a sizing die at the end. That worked great at forcing the slurry into the surface of the string at the end of the pull but as I increased the die size, the spots came back. I decided that I wanted a 2mm die and a 2mm BM diameter so I had to make a tool to force the slurry into the string.

 

That is when I made the "wringer" for the BM. It is actually not a wringer at all, it forces the string to press the slurry into the itself as it is wrapping itself around the rollers at 5 different times in its travels, twice on one side and three times on the other plus two sheer points where the string passes itself under pressure causing the slurry to be stripped from the side of the string allowing for deeper penetration as it passes through the medium.

 

The next issue to conquer is the string core not getting saturated with black powder and that is where the four separate strands I am spooling up come in to play. As was mentioned earlier, the slurry would then be trapped in between the threads and would effectively have a powder core that would pass fire very well.

 

This whole process is completely automated and controlled by turning the rack.

 

I would love to give out free samples at PGI next year or at the Wisconsin spring shoot.

 

D

Edited January 10, 2010 by dagabu

[TrueBluePyro]

Swerve,

 

I have to admit that I took pictures of a "perfect rack" to post, I too get some that stick to each other. I found the secret to be to make sure the frame is square and strong so that as you wind the BM around it that it doesn't sag under the tension. That causes the first strings to loosen and stick to the other strings like you said.

 

This rack though, came out great, I did not touch any BM once, I just wound the rack till it was full and cut the string and let it fall on the floor. I have a steel 1 gallon 'burn bucket' that I have to get rid of this spring full of ends and bad BM and the like.

 

I found that there were several issues with making good BM fast. The first was the tendency of the black powder to fall out of suspension, I fixed that with the a bit of a manufacturers help and added 1% CMC to the slurry.

 

The second issue was the slurry drying out when pulling a whole rack of BM. I solved this by prewhetting my string with a KNO3 saturated solution and running it through a die to squeeze off extra fluid leaving the string very damp but not dripping wet. This kept the strung from pulling all the fluid out and leaving the particles behind in the container.

 

The third issue was with finding white spots on the string after pulling it. The white spots were sections of string where the slurry didn't stick to the string. This was maddening! I tried several different ways of solving the issue such as a sizing die at the end. That worked great at forcing the slurry into the surface of the string at the end of the pull but as I increased the die size, the spots came back. I decided that I wanted a 2mm die and a 2mm BM diameter so I had to make a tool to force the slurry into the string.

 

That is when I made the "wringer" for the BM. It is actually not a wringer at all, it forces the string to press the slurry into the itself as it is wrapping itself around the rollers at 5 different times in its travels, twice on one side and three times on the other plus two sheer points where the string passes itself under pressure causing the slurry to be stripped from the side of the string allowing for deeper penetration as it passes through the medium.

 

The next issue to conquer is the string core not getting saturated with black powder and that is where the four separate strands I am spooling up come in to play. As was mentioned earlier, the slurry would then be trapped in between the threads and would effectively have a powder core that would pass fire very well.

 

This whole process is completely automated and controlled by turning the rack.

 

I would love to give out free samples at PGI next year or at the Wisconsin spring shoot.

 

D

 

 

So Dag,

 

(Old thread I know..) With this photo here http://www.pyrobin.com/files/dsc_9576.jpg , does this 'gizmo' go in the bottom on the black powder slurry bucket?

 

Thanks

[dagabu]

Yes, it does. I have changed my method once again though....

 

More tonight

[ausgoty]

Interesting thread, I must have missed it when it first came out.

 

I like to soak in KNO3 solution, doesn't cause any problems and gets it through those dead spots. Like Dag said, without it things can go on a long smoulder...

 

Gum arabic is my binder of choice for BM but only 5%. Dextrin works but its too delicate, seems to flake off with the slightest provacation.

 

Do it by hand, no machine, just many 2 metre lengths that I pull through my fingers as it comes out of the slurry, finger pressure has a lot do with the integration of the coating but you just develop a "feel" for that

 

Gives me a hard but slightly flexible match that can take lots of abuse and still burn reliably. Haven't tried CMC yet, I thought you would replace your main binder with it. But it seems it is best as an additive, will give it a go if I ever get some.

 

Never had it fail, suits my needs just fine.

[Bonny]

Interesting thread, I must have missed it when it first came out.

 

I like to soak in KNO3 solution, doesn't cause any problems and gets it through those dead spots. Like Dag said, without it things can go on a long smoulder...

 

Gum arabic is my binder of choice for BM but only 5%. Dextrin works but its too delicate, seems to flake off with the slightest provacation.

 

Do it by hand, no machine, just many 2 metre lengths that I pull through my fingers as it comes out of the slurry, finger pressure has a lot do with the integration of the coating but you just develop a "feel" for that

 

Gives me a hard but slightly flexible match that can take lots of abuse and still burn reliably. Haven't tried CMC yet, I thought you would replace your main binder with it. But it seems it is best as an additive, will give it a go if I ever get some.

 

Never had it fail, suits my needs just fine.

 

I tried all sorts of guides and stuff, but never found a set up I liked, and ended up more or less doing what you do, running it through my (gloved) fingers.

 

Now I just buy it...no more mess.

[ausgoty]

But thats cheating Bonny

[dagabu]

I use NO Dextrin, just CMC for the binder. 1% is more then enough if done right.

 

I also found that there is no mechanical process in the world that can ensure that the string has no 'bald' spots so I now make a shank of string that will fit my frame when pulled and place it in a tub of hot slurry, knead the slurry into the string and wring it out. I then run the string through the coating machine and pull it on to the rack.

 

500' of perfect stiff black match in under an hour if the slurry is already mixed.

[TrueBluePyro]

Yes, it does. I have changed my method once again though....

 

More tonight

 

Would you be able to get a photo of this new method? Thanks Dag.

[dagabu]

Its freakin below zero here TBP!! LOL!

 

I cant keep the KNO3 in suspension in the cold, it needs to be 70° to keep the KNO3 from crystallizing in the tub. I will see if I can find Lloyd's pictures, I copied his method

[Bonny]

But thats cheating Bonny

 

True enough. But if I can buy it, then that's just one less thing to do. It leaves more time for making tooling, stars, shells etc...

[dagabu]

True enough. But if I can buy it, then that's just one less thing to do. It leaves more time for making tooling, stars, shells etc...

 

For me, it's the journey, not the destination. Launching the rockets sometimes makes me sad since I know that the journey is now over. I actually loose sleep the night before I make blackmatch and the like, I get so psyched up about making another part of pyro.