First ball mill use

[scarbelly]

Alright, my bad. I probably shouldn't speak until I've tried it. I've always preferred dry methods, so I stick with them as long as I can.

[Swede]

If no ball mill, the CIA method produces effective powder, but it cannot touch milled BP, IMO. The very first batch of BP which I made since coming back into pyro was a 1 kilo CIA batch, and all I use it for now is star gun use. It doesn't have the punch of milled powder. But if there is no mill available, then it beats the heck out of green powder executed by mortar & pestle or screening.

[AdmiralDonSnider]

If no ball mill, the CIA method produces effective powder, but it cannot touch milled BP, IMO.

 

 

I perfectly agree, but the general use of the term "CIA method" does not specify if there is a ball mill. If no ball mill, CIA powder can´t touch milled BP; the question is if this is true for CIA powder coming from ball milled C/S also. I personally don´t think so. However, as people usually judge the CIA method without wasting a single word about the degree the C/S has been integrated, I constantly have to contradict their categorical damnations.

[Bonny]

I perfectly agree, but the general use of the term "CIA method" does not specify if there is a ball mill. If no ball mill, CIA powder can´t touch milled BP; the question is if this is true for CIA powder coming from ball milled C/S also. I personally don´t think so. However, as people usually judge the CIA method without wasting a single word about the degree the C/S has been integrated, I constantly have to contradict their categorical damnations.

 

 

AFAIK, the CIA method was intended for "field expedient" blackpowder...which would pretty much guarantee the lack of a ball mill. I believe the intention was to produce a usable BP (not the best) in emergency situations with few resources available. IF a ballmill was always available (carried by agents) then there is only the slight advantage of speed of production. As far as milling the C/S then using the CIA method...really what's the point? Mill it all together and save the messy cooking.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Bonny

[dagabu]

I perfectly agree, but the general use of the term "CIA method" does not specify if there is a ball mill. If no ball mill, CIA powder can´t touch milled BP; the question is if this is true for CIA powder coming from ball milled C/S also. I personally don´t think so. However, as people usually judge the CIA method without wasting a single word about the degree the C/S has been integrated, I constantly have to contradict their categorical damnations.

 

With rock polishers running at $40.00 and used ceramic media running $12.00 per 10#, I cant see why anyone would try CIA BP. Like Swede, I made CIA BP when I got back into the game and found it to be overly messy, dangerous, and messy!!

 

It did burn but depending on your charcoal, you may get residue, slow burning, good burn etc. A lot of charcoal can be wasted in the wash (alcohol) if it is too fine and the burn can be really slow if to coarse.

 

I would rather waste my money on a ball mill them dump it down the drain on iffy powder. This is my opinion only.

 

D

[Swede]

The CIA method I used was the one written up in Tom Perigrin's book "Introductory Practical Pyrotechincs." It uses a boiling water BP mash to dissolve and integrate the KNO3, and then it is crashed with alcohol to keep the KNO3 very fine, and not precipitate out as fat crystals, which would slow the burn. The main problem I saw with it was this - when you crash the hot mash with alcohol, you then place the mash in a cotton cloth and wring out excess water. There MUST be some KNO3 lost in that water, which would upset the proportions. But the BP I got from it was screened and dried, and it performs decent - much, much better than any other sort of green or unmilled BP I've tried... and I think we've all made variations on green powder as kids.

 

I guess you could ball mill the resultant CIA BP, but I don't think you'd surpass normal ball-milled 75:15:10 BP.

 

If there is interest, I'll use my "speed rig" to test my CIA powder vs some better ball milled powder. I don't know what it would tell us other than a rough indication of speed. I can toss some GOEX into the runs as a baseline.

 

http://www.5bears.com/firew/bpspd04.jpg

http://www.5bears.com/firew/bpspd05.jpg

[TheSidewinder]

Yes, please do! I'd like to see the results. I never made a CIA batch, simply because it looked like a major pain in the ass. I bought a Lortone instead.

[psyco_1322]

I tried CIA one time, step by step... nothing seemed to work right. All I made was a mess.

[50AE]

For the people who wonder why white droplets appear as residue. It is because of two facts :

 

-The KNO3 is not enough milled, it's not fine. (maybe the most common reason)

-The KNO3 is excessive (less common)

[Bonny]

I tried CIA one time, step by step... nothing seemed to work right. All I made was a mess.

 

I also tried it once when I was just starting out a few years ago.It made a real mess (in the kitchen ) Charcoal dust everywhere. I don't remember if it was any good as it was one of my first batches of BP I ever made. In any case i would never repeat as milling is so much easier...weigh it out--turn it on-- go away--come back later and process as desired.

[vladou]

The main problem I saw with it was this - when you crash the hot mash with alcohol, you then place the mash in a cotton cloth and wring out excess water. There MUST be some KNO3 lost in that water, which would upset the proportions.

 

Yes, of course. I weighed chemicals to make 400g of black powder and when I weighed the final product there was only around 370g of black powder.. I don't say that 30g of KNO3 is gone (there also was certainly some charcoal) but I think a good part of it has been loost in water. (I filtered my BP when it was around 15°C.. not enough cold I think)

[Swede]

OK guys, I'll do a speed test for fun. It might take a few days, but it'll get done. I need to select BP's that are a similar grain size for the test to mean anything. My riced CIA powder is pretty close to Goex 2F. I have some good milled willow BP with a similar grain, also riced, but NOT pressed and corned. I may also have some pressed and corned 2F-mesh willow BP that should match or surpass GOEX.

 

Each test is 5 grams mass, laid in the channel as evenly as possible. It is not as accurate a test as a spolette or similar, but from previous tests, it does a decent job; plus, it's fun!

[AdmiralDonSnider]

AFAIK, the CIA method was intended for "field expedient" blackpowder...which would pretty much guarantee the lack of a ball mill. (...) As far as milling the C/S then using the CIA method...really what's the point? Mill it all together and save the messy cooking.

 

You´re right about the background. However, the method has been improved and modified by amateurs not necessarily bound to the weak possibilities of its original audience.

The question about "what´s the point..." is perfectly appropriate. I´ll try to give some arguments (note that I´m no militant CIA fan):

 

- safety: some argue that the CIA method is a safer alternative to three component milling; I consider this doubtful as you can be badly burned when dealing with boiling black stuff, but for some it´s a reason for choosing CIA

- mill capacities: my jar is 4" diameter and I want short milling times, so I consider it an advantage if I don´t have to mill the nitrate. One load of C/S will give me enough material to make a 500g batch of gunpowder

- performance: some people seem to think that the CIA method is strictly unable to produce decent BP. This is true with regard to simple CIA, using poorly integrated C/S. On the other hand a combination of CIA and milling can produce very fast grain, clocking 90cm/sec and more (see von Maltitz). As far as I´m involved, I´ve used CIA to produce numerous batches of powder more than fast enough for all kinds of pyro.

- what´s meant by saying "CIA-method"?: this is a question necessarily adressed to those who keep saying CIA is bad or inferior to xy. Who knows if they are using an optimized method, who knows if they are making mistakes ending up in mediocre powder? (note that there´s a detailled discription coming up at Pyroguide, talking about potential mistakes and how they can be avoided)

 

Although my knowledge may end with von Maltitz first book, I´m not the guy who goes as far as to say the three component milling is a bad way to make powder, as this would be downright wrong; it´s probably the best way. Even such a CIA expert as von Maltitz has pointed this out.

On the other hand, we´ll have to back away from opinions founded on abysmal rumors.

Edited November 27, 2009 by AdmiralDonSnider

[Swede]

The speed test results are in:

 

BP Speed Tests

 

Unfortunately my CIA powder was a bit slooooow. Could have been technique. It was a fun test that gives only a rough estimate. Grain-size definitely has a huge effect on burn speed.

[vladou]

I think CIA BP could be enough good only with ball milled charcoal/sulfur.

[AdmiralDonSnider]

I think CIA BP could be enough good only with ball milled charcoal/sulfur.

 

That´s exactly what "a combination of CIA and milling" refers to.

 

By the way: thanks Swede for your interesting speed test! Granulation indeed makes a huge difference, especially with corned grain. 5FA is hellishly fast compared to FFA, for example. Keep up the good work!

Edited November 28, 2009 by AdmiralDonSnider