Pyro09 Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Hi , I am looking for a whistle-mix which is as safe as possible (I know, it always has to be handled like flash). But for example Kclo4-Whistle is safer as Kclo3-Whistle - but which comp seems to be the best? My available Chems are: Kclo4, Kclo3, Fe2O3, Sodium Benzoate, Vaseline and mineral oil. Greetings, pyro09
Miech Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Well, with those chemicals you'll end up with KClO4/Sodium benzoate whistle I think. The ratios for the fuel and oxidizer depend on the application. For rocketry I'd go for 75/25, and for non-propelling porposes I'd use 65/35. In both cases use 1 to 4% of vaseline as desensitizer. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the procedure for making whistle, so I'll post it in a nutshell here. First dry your sodium benzoate in an oven. Then ball mill it with some Fe2O3. While ball milling it, dissolve some vaseline in warm mineral oil. Then empty your ball mill, and mix the contents with the vaseline solution. Carefully knead in pre-screened potassium perchlorate and keep on kneading until it is uniform pink dough. Then screen it into granules and let dry.
Mumbles Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Just one correction. Pick either mineral oil or vaseline. Mineral spirits or paint thinner or something like that is more frequently used as the solvent.
Swede Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Just one correction. Pick either mineral oil or vaseline. Mineral spirits or paint thinner or something like that is more frequently used as the solvent. Are you saying thin either mineral oil or vaseline with one of those solvents, Mumbles? How about dry whistle coated on rice hulls or vermiculite? Obviously not for rockets, but for burst.
a_bab Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 The vaseline/mineral oil is specifically used for the rocket fuel, in order to achieve the best incorporation/pressing characteristics. The constant burning speed is the key here. For burst that won't matter anyway with the speed of whistle, but an already made rocket fuel will obviously work. Although I never heard of coating rice hulls with it, but rather using it freely/in a flash bag. Rice hulls/vermiculite/whatever are for KP/BP.
TheSidewinder Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Hmmmm.... the title of this post really should be "What's the least dangerous Whistle Mix". Come right down to it, almost nothing we make in our hobby is truly "safe". It's all about reducing risks to an acceptable level.
Bonny Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 The vaseline/mineral oil is specifically used for the rocket fuel, in order to achieve the best incorporation/pressing characteristics. The constant burning speed is the key here. For burst that won't matter anyway with the speed of whistle, but an already made rocket fuel will obviously work. Although I never heard of coating rice hulls with it, but rather using it freely/in a flash bag. Rice hulls/vermiculite/whatever are for KP/BP. The whistle with vaseline/mineral oil is not 'specifically' for rockets, but is also used in whistle inserts/spollettes/ground whistles. I have also never heard of anyone directly coating rice hulls/verm with whistle only, although I'm sure someone has... As a booster it is often mixed (powder form) with the (coated) hulls in a bag and given a shake where it will somewhat stick to them. It is also commonly granulated with NC or RG and added that way as a booster.
Pyro09 Posted November 2, 2009 Author Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Hmmmm.... the title of this post really should be "What's the least dangerous Whistle Mix". Yeah, I know, I think so too.. What do you think about the following comp: 76g Kclo423g Sodium Benzoate1g Fe2o3+3g Vaseline (Solved in Acetone) Any experiences? Kind regards, Pyro09 EDIT: I'm sorry, I discouvered a post which talks about exactly that comp.. so my problems are solved, thanks =) Edited November 2, 2009 by Pyro09
Mumbles Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 The mineral oil or vaseline allows safer compression, as well as some additional properties that make it favorable for rockets and other pressed items. I think we can agree on that. Now, I am curious about this vaseline and mineral oil mixture. I've never seen this used, rather one or the other. Using the term vaseline/mineral oil can get slightly confusing in this case. Are you guys referring to these additives being able to be used interchangeably, or designed to be used in conjunction with one another? If you are talking about a conjunction, what is the advantage of this over the individual components? If the conjunction thing yields any sort of discussion I'll split it off into it's own topic.
Miech Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Dissolving vaseline in acetone didn't work too well for me. Mineral oil should have been mineral spirit in my first post, it's pretty confusing for me . Gently warming the solvent in a water bath speeds up dissolving.
dagabu Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 Dissolving vaseline in acetone didn't work too well for me. Mineral oil should have been mineral spirit in my first post, it's pretty confusing for me . Gently warming the solvent in a water bath speeds up dissolving. I like to stay pretty simple with Na/Benz, pot/perk, Fe2O3 and baby oil. I use it to coat BP coated hulls, make motors, add a portion to break etc. D
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 I too, am curious about this. Is it just vaseline, or is the vaseline thinned? I would imagine it to be thinned, but I have no experience here, so I will leave it to the experienced whistlers.
dagabu Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 I too, am curious about this. Is it just vaseline, or is the vaseline thinned? I would imagine it to be thinned, but I have no experience here, so I will leave it to the experienced whistlers. OK, OK, dang... Take the Vaseline, er, petroleum jelly and put it into a double boiler OUTSIDE!!!! Melt the PJ until it is liquid, add the same amount of your thinner of choice to the PJ slowly and mix it together (I cant believe I have to tell you this, GAH!). Now, SLOWLY drip this into your prepared whistle comp till it's all gone. Take the comp and pass it through a 30-40 mesh screen 3-4 times to make it homogeneous. Spread it all out on a clean sheet of news paper and let it dry (OK, not dry but let all of the thinner out) OR... use baby oil... Really, this is serious stuff. If you screw this up you will die. D
new2pyro Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 Being new to the hobby as with any new interests I have, I do alot of research and ask alot of questions. I feel that if you need to have whistle mix comps and procedures explained that much, best to stay away from it. I would never try making it by just what I learned here or on the internet. I am joining a club where someday after hands on learning with people who have experience with it, I can attempt it. From what I've seen with catos, one chance is all you get. Not on my agenda anytime soon.
Yafmot Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) I've found that Xylene works best for petrolatum (vaseline). And you don't need a goddamned double boiler to do it. Just determine what amount of vaseline will equal 4 or 5 % of your mix, put it in a beaker (or even a small jar), and give it about 10 to 20 seconds (depending on the mass) in the microwave. The main thing is to make sure it's thoroughly melted to a clear liquid, so there will be enough residual heat to keep the solvent from solidifying the vaseline when you mix it in. Then add about 8 times this amount in Xylene and stir the hell out of it. If it starts to gel too soon, just add some more Xylene and hold the bottom half of the jar or beaker under hot, running water until everything liquifies. Keep adding solvent until the mix no longer congeals when it cools. Once this is accomplished, just pour it over your mix and blend thoroughly. You can speed things up with moderate warming, and faster yet if you can pull a vacuum on it. The ultimate goal is to very evenly disperse the vaseline in the whistle mix, and this method will work great. Good luck. Edited November 3, 2009 by Yafmot
Zmuro Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 I millded sodium benzoate and copper oxide and some SiO2 but the benzoate bild up a layer 1-2mm thick on my milling media. I used SS ball bearings and after 6h of milling the benzoate was quite coarse, not like BP when it's milled for couple of hours. Could I put any perchlorate in to the benzoate, so that it wouldn't stick to the milling media? For example, if I mill 230g of benzoate, is it safe to put 200g of perchlorate in int or maybe just 100g and mill it together?
dagabu Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 I millded sodium benzoate and copper oxide and some SiO2 but the benzoate bild up a layer 1-2mm thick on my milling media. I used SS ball bearings and after 6h of milling the benzoate was quite coarse, not like BP when it's milled for couple of hours. Could I put any perchlorate in to the benzoate, so that it wouldn't stick to the milling media? For example, if I mill 230g of benzoate, is it safe to put 200g of perchlorate in int or maybe just 100g and mill it together? Yes, with two conditions: 1. You want to get rid of your ball mill2. you don't care about your neighbors 3. (I cant count) You enjoy long vacations in the hoosegow The reason it is building up on your media is because it is either slightly damp or it is being milled to long. A properly charged will mill Na/Benz in a half hour. Rinse the rest off and discard. D
Zmuro Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 On how many degrease celsius should I dry benzoate? I could put it on wax paper and into an oven.
FREAKYDUTCHMEN Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 Just put in on a plate on 110 degrees celcius.
a_bab Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 You shouldn't dry your benzoate in the oven; I have the impression it's able to sublime and as a bonus for your heated food you'd get some preservative in it. Every time. Even if it looks "greasy" it's dry. Unless you froze it before ball milling it and it condensed some water. I'd quit the idea of ball milling it all in all and I'd rather grab the coffee mill and give it a whizzzz, mixed with some iron oxide. But NOT with an oxidizer !!!!! Just the question of miling sodium benzoate with an oxidizer clearly shows that your level of knowledge in pyro is very vast...NOT. It'll end up in a huge explosion. I mean, HUUUUGE. Gaving a mix very diluted with oxidizer doesn't mean it's not capable of going off. Especially because you are dealing with pesky grains, and say the'd get incorporated slowly, eventually reaching a good enough mixture to damage (read vaporise) you ball mill and possibly parts of you. At least you ask before you try. Some don't and end up contesting in the Darwin awards list.
TheEskimo Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 Can't help but put this in as a reminder of making whistle....I jacked it off of Skylighter, no plagiarism intended:
Eric70 Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 (edited) EDITED. The participants of the pissing match have removed their comments, so this was deleted as well. You weren't involved in the match, just a bystander. Edited November 4, 2009 by TheSidewinder Thread cleaned up, and this comment no longer had relevance.
Ventsi Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 (edited) Back on topic, Mineral Spirits is a clear no-odor liquid, right? Just want to make sure I buy the right stuff.Also, would CuO act as a catalyst of any sort, or should I stick with Fe2O3, I want it as hot as possible for breaking cavity stars. EDITED: Quote deleted as part of the overall thread clean-up. You weren't targeted. Edited November 4, 2009 by Ventsi Cleaning up some unnecessary bickering.
Seymour Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 Copper oxide is certainly a perchlorate catalyst. I doubt it will be as effective as Fe2O3, or for that matter Copper oxychloride, or it would be commonly used.
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