Found a PbO2 source

[patsroom]

I have been trying to find a sourse for Lead Dixoide anodes and this is what I have found. The a type size is like 2 inches by about 5 inches with about a 3 inches of a strap plate to hang it on the type b is a 1 inch strap 8 inches long 5 inches of it is coated. But the price as seen below is way too high. But all else looks good. I hope to find a better deal. I well keep looking until I do. But if enought people are willing to buy at this price I well finish up on this deal. But like I said the price is just to high at this time.

 

XXXXXXXX-XXXXXXXX-XXXXXXX

Titanium Products and Equipment Manufacturing Co.,Ltd Price list

 

Date of offer: October 24, 2009

 

Item :Lead dioxide coated Titanium Anode

 

Client name: Patrick

 

Email:

 

Address:

Item 1

 

Type A anode

 

Cost of material

 

36USD/piece

 

Cost of coating

 

152USD/piece

 

Unit price

 

36USD+152USD=188USD/piece

 

Quantity

 

20pcs

 

Total value

 

188USDX20=3,760USD

 

Item 2

 

Type B anode

 

Cost of material

 

28USD/piece

 

Cost of coating

 

131USD/piece

 

Unit price

 

28USD+131USD=159USD/piece

 

Quantity

 

20pcs

 

Total value

 

159USDX20=3,180USD

 

Remarks:

 

Quotation mode

 

CIF Oregon (Door to door)

 

Validity of offer

 

Within 20 days

 

Minimum of order

 

20pcs for each item

 

Coating contents

 

Lead dioxide(PbO2)

 

Thickness of PbO2

 

1.5mm

 

Lifespan of anode

 

=2.5 years

 

Delivery time

 

Within 3 weeks against Copy of Remittance

 

Packing

 

Export Standard Wooden case

 

Terms of payment

 

By T/T, 100% payment in advance against Proforma Invoice

XXXXXX-XXXXXXX-XXXXXXX

XXXXXXXX Products and Equipment

 

Manufacturing Co.,Ltd

 

Contact person: (Sales Manager)

 

Tel: 0086+512+6665 XXXX

 

Fax:0086+512+6536 XXXX

 

Mobile:0086+151 9568-XXXX(24hour)

 

Web:

 

www

 

Mail

 

Sorry about blank out the contact infor. I just don't want to sour the cream.

 

[patsroom]

Here are the requirements that I asked for. I hope this up loads so that all can see what I asked for.

http://www.apcforum.net/forums/style_images/1/folder_mime_types/pdf.gifPb02.pdf

[TheSidewinder]

I cleaned up that post as best as the Editor would allow me, Pat.

 

Pasting from anywhere outside the Forum can cause some pretty weird text formatting.

[Swede]

Pat, what is your goal? Perchlorates in one step from the chloride? It is a great find, as ANY source of a true PbO2 anode is something to note, but as you said, the price is just too high. I find it interesting that these are so expensive. It implies that plating an active and durable PbO2 layer is an costly and tricky PITA.

 

At that cost, I'd rather do a Pt anode, because I would be afraid that these particular LD anodes might not be as durable as we'd like. It'd be nice to get a sample of ONE and see what it can do, but the pain that would come from watching an expensive LD anode disintegrate would be high.

 

I tried a very simple experiment the other day. I made a SOL (Solvent) as part of the Sol-gel process, using boehmite alumina and PbO2. Stirred and heated for a few hours, this was painted onto a roughened Ti rectangle, and baked at 400 C. The resulting anode was still too soft.

 

The boehmite (picture microtubules of alumina oxide) has great potential to carry catalytic materials inside the tubules, but the trick is getting them to adhere properly to a valve metal substrate and be conductive.

 

Good luck in your search. I'd like to kidnap one of their technicians and beat the crap out of him and find some of the trade secrets that will produce a PbO2 coating over Ti with reliability.

[patsroom]

I tried a very simple experiment the other day. I made a SOL (Solvent) as part of the Sol-gel process, using boehmite alumina and PbO2. Stirred and heated for a few hours, this was painted onto a roughened Ti rectangle, and baked at 400 C. The resulting anode was still too soft.

 

 

 

Good luck in your search. I'd like to kidnap one of their technicians and beat the crap out of him and find some of the trade secrets that will produce a PbO2 coating over Ti with reliability.

 

I am glad that you are still in search of the knowledge of how to make an anode that will do the job we all would like.

As for getting one of their techs...... well that might be hard but I did get a invitation to their factory. Maybe I could let you go there in my place so you could kidnap and make a deal to trade him back. Else you will have to put him in a bag and bring him home with you......LOL

I think they are about the size of a Keebler elf if that should help.

Pat

Edited October 25, 2009 by patsroom

[Yafmot]

I managed to get a 6X10" piece of Pt clad expanded Niobium mesh and a 1 1/2" By 14" solid strip of same. Price? Por nada. I was just asking about the price of some small scrap or end cuts, and the guy says "aw, hell, you mean a sample. Just give me your mailing address & I'll send you some. So, how much do you need?"

 

I was just flabbergasted. I figured it would cost an arm and a leg, and the guy just hands it over! Now the only question is, do I want to make a bunch of little ones, or just one big one that'll last a while at 6vdc @60 amps? (This is what my power supply puts out in the 6v hookup.) If that's still too much I'll have to go to Harbor Freight and pick up one of those $30.00, 6v battery chargers that put out 5 amps. My anode will last forever then, and Ill have enough solid stuff left to use it for an anode too.

 

My 12v side puts out 15 amps, which is just about right for KClO4. What I want to know is, are there any special procedures I need to go through if I want to go from Chloride straight through to Perch? Do I just wait until it quits making Chlorate & then just bump-up the wattage? Do I have to wash the stuff between stages. I've only done small amounts of -O3 using a scrap Ti anode that I had some PbO3 CVDd onto at a place I used to work. I've been told that getting Chlorate contamination out of the Perch is a cast Iron bitch.

 

Anybody tried this mythical straight through process? Any luck?

Edited November 2, 2009 by Yafmot

[Swede]

Yafmot, nice find. That much Pt over niobium would normally run a couple hundred bucks or more.

 

Normally, you do NOT want to use Pt to run from chloride to perchlorate. It'll do it, but it will suffer and erode. The best route would be electrolysis of chlorate to perchlorate with a minimum of chloride in the cell. I'd go MMO for chlorate, and your Pt for perchlorate.

 

I'd cut the 6" X 10" piece into 3 pieces - 2 ea 2.5" X 6", and one big 5" X 6". But that's just me. How are you going to attach straps to it?

 

I think your 6V option, high current, is best. Adjust the electrode spacing for current draw. Too much voltage is not good, and not needed.

 

Getting the chlorate out is not that hard. It takes some potassium or sodium metabisulfite and heat. The SO2 gas reduces the residual chlorate to chloride, which is normally washed out upon recrystallization. Tentacles posted some numbers recently, and it turns out mil-spec perchlorate can have up to 0.1% chlorate and still be OK for military pyrotechnics. I think 0.04% or less is a better number and very achievable. Look up a blog entry I did on perchlorate cleanup.

 

I can spot-weld Ti straps to your material, or if it does not spot weld, possibly TIG weld it onto the strap with Ti filler wire. PM me if you're interested.

 

Anyway, that is a helluva deal, that material is very expensive, depending upon the thickness of the Pt coating.

[patsroom]

Here are the requirements that I asked for. I hope this up loads so that all can see what I asked for.

http://www.apcforum.net/forums/style_images/1/folder_mime_types/pdf.gifPb02.pdf

 

 

I have been in talks with a company that is welling to sale me Lead Dixoide Anodes. The New Price that they well be to buy one is $135.00 USD plus shipping and handling for type A anode and for type B the asking price is $105.00 USD plus shipping and handling. I would still have to buy a minium of 20 of them at a time. This is for the first order as they wish for the samples to be seen. I do not known if they would increase the price after but I would think not (I hope not).

I need the help of all of the members here to see what you think about this, please reply good or bad so I can decide if I should buy 20 or more.

My feeling is that the price is now so much better (than the price for Pt. coated Ti. at $80.00 to $90.00 for a .5" x 4" with a 3" hanging strap). And theses lead dixoide anodes well do everything that we could want from chlorides to pre-chlorates of the salts.

I know that there is a thread within this forum that deals in the sale of pyro items, but as you can see this is not items for sale at this time. This is a request for replies to see if this is a deal that everybody would be interested in. Like I said earlier I just think that this is a great buy and the price is now so much better than their first go around.

There is not much more I can add with out Beating a Dead Horse on this one. Just one more kick at the horse I just can't help it- This would be a great deal I know it would be.

[Swede]

As I mentioned in my PM, I'd be in for 1 or 2 of the larger jobs, but it is going to be tough to get 20 people lined up! Have you tried Science Madness? Post in the technochemistry section, and you might get some nibbles there.

 

I really hope it works out... I'd love to see (and work with) a genuine, commercial lead dioxide anode!

[tentacles]

I wonder how fragile these are? Will you have problems shipping them via UPS/Fedex? It's noted everywhere in "the relevant literature" that these anodes are notoriously fragile. I can see getting them here in a container on a ship, but getting chucked around by your local UPS man?

 

I wonder how thick the substrate they are using is? They could be getting around the fragility somewhat (to a large degree?) by using a thick plate. 1/8" Ti would be quite strong.

Edited November 7, 2009 by tentacles

[patsroom]

I wonder how fragile these are? Will you have problems shipping them via UPS/Fedex? It's noted everywhere in "the relevant literature" that these anodes are notoriously fragile. I can see getting them here in a container on a ship, but getting chucked around by your local UPS man?

 

I wonder how thick the substrate they are using is? They could be getting around the fragility somewhat (to a large degree?) by using a thick plate. 1/8" Ti would be quite strong.

 

Hello Tentacles, They said that they were going to send them to me by DHL delivery and that they well use airmail to get them to me. If I repack them as well as what Swede packs his Ti shipment then I see no problem. The substrate should be .042" inches Ti which I believe is the same as Swede's anodes. Speaking of which, the anodes that Swede sales would be great to use with the Lead Dioxide anodes. I am sure that Swede would do a great job of fixing you right up. I know he done a great job for me. And the coating I believe well be thick enough that it well hold up to transporting.

Right now with out the funds I can only buy the type B anodes that are 1" inch wide by 8 inches with a coating of 4 1/2 inches of lead dioxide. So all in all they should ship well.

Edited November 8, 2009 by patsroom

[tentacles]

Have you considered asking them about putting some sort of round shank on the anode? That would simplify actually using it - not that you couldn't spot weld your own on. I would be interested, in different times, but I just bought another lathe and funds are tight.

[patsroom]

Have you considered asking them about putting some sort of round shank on the anode? That would simplify actually using it - not that you couldn't spot weld your own on. I would be interested, in different times, but I just bought another lathe and funds are tight.

 

 

That would have been interesting if I had of ask for a round shank, but I would believed that the price would have increased to reflect the added labor. At the time I first started dealing with them I was just trying to get an ideal as to the prices they had in mind. Then I had to do some talking to get them to lower their end down so that we could at least have a chance to see what they have to offer.

My funds are so tight that I will find it hard to just come up with the price they are wanting for the smaller one of the two types. But when I do I well offer some of them to the rest if there is any interest.

I am afraid that I can not carry the burden of them at the cost that the company wants. That is why it is so important to hear from those who would buy even one of the smaller one that I plan on ordering. With the knowledge that there would be some support would help me decide in getting as many as I could.

If the support is there I will continue to try and obtain the anodes for those who do not wish to endanger themselves with the hash chemicals that are needed to make one's own Lead Dixode Anode.

And I would wish for thoses who are trying to find the right way to make the anodes, that they continue the search. I feel that is important to find the cheapest cost for them and making them a home I hope would be the way to go. That is why I support what Swede and all the others has been working on it the search for making them.

Well I need to end this, as you can see I can go on forever. And it would not add to the answer of the question of why not have a round shank on the anodes.

Drawing_PDF_Anode.pdf

Edited November 8, 2009 by patsroom

[tentacles]

Well, it wouldn't be that tough to add our own round shanks or whatever to the anodes. I really wish I had the dough to toss in, how many buyers would you need to order the big ones? I know a guy up here who may be interested.

[Swede]

The way to go would be to hook up with the Northstar guy, or one of the other major players, for an initial order. He could in turn sell them openly, and I would be surprised if he couldn't sell twenty of them fairly quickly. For every one guy who posts and talks about this process, there are 25 quietly experimenting.

 

If properly prepared, a good LD anode should outlast platinum with a bit of care.

 

The flat strap could always be cut down to a stub, and that stub spot welded to a flattened round Ti tube shank. My problem is tubing... I have a very reliable, friendly source for CP Ti sheet at a good price, but no real supplier for the tubing that isn't asking $25 per foot for 1/2" tube. For 1/2", the wall really needs to be 0.062" or so to create a cross section that can carry good current, but I really like the idea of filling it with molten lead, or jamming in a section of stripped welding cable. The last choice (still vastly better than nothing) would be to use bronze wool, and jam the hell out of it into the shank with a wooden dowel.

 

As always with the round shanks, the trick is in the upper cap. It needs to not only retian the pure round form, it has to allow a secure connection to the electrical cable. And a lathe is the only way I know how to do that.

 

Hmm... idea. How about filling the tube to the very rim with a good hard lead alloy, lots of antimony or tin. Then drill and tap it for 1/4" X 20? I think that'd work, AND be easy! I like it! It'd be like one of the female threaded fittings on some car batteries.

[patsroom]

Opening up this old thread.... I made a better deal for the Pb02 lead dioxide anodes and that means a few will be sold after testing.....Pat Edited October 8, 2010 by patsroom

[patsroom]

After a long year I finally got a better deal. I will be selling at least 3 of them.

picture 4.BMP

Edited October 14, 2010 by patsroom