Black Powder

[angelluis]

Very useful info, I to am a amature,but very ,detailed in my reading and i have learned alot I just got a tumbler two a 6 lb dubble drum read some ok reviews,also just got a 2000x.1g my wiegh scale,plus alot of other stuff to start making some two inch shells ,thanks two everyone very useful info indeed.

[jimbo]

thats what I use,I have a 6lb thumler ar2 and it works as is,makes good powder, mills about 100g each drum pretty efficiently I use about 30 half inch sinkers as media in each jar I tried milling 200g in one drum and it's no good so I just do small batchs now.

[bobkeyes]

As I said before, I am new to this. Just want to make sure and get it right.

 

I have a mill. I plan on using 50 cal lead as the media. Should I reserve a jar and media just for BP and not use it for anything else?

 

Thanks

Bob Keyes

[Mumbles]

I don't know if you have to reserve a jar specifically for BP. To tell you the truth, BP is pretty much all I mill anyway. Just avoid chlorates and ammonium perchlorate. I kind of want to get some SS or ceramic media to mill my nitrate just to keep it cleaner. Jars clean out pretty easily. If you're not milling incompatible chemicals, there isn't much to worry about.

 

On the other hand, a dedicated jar would save you from having to clean your jar very often.

[bobkeyes]

Thanks Mumbles. I appreciate it. My jars are hard rubber. Would that make any difference? I thought maybe some of the BP might embed in the rubber.

 

Bob Keyes

[Twotails]

i found it does eat away at the rubber(VERY slightly, not much thats noticable) but somthing thats more noticable if your useing 50cal lead musket balls like me, theres a significant amount of lead that will be in your charcoal(unless its hardened lead) I've made some 1/2in-1/2in round cylinders of wood, drilled out the center almost fully, filled it with soft lead, then dipped it in liquid rubber(a few coates) not as good for milling as stright lead, but i find it works somewhat if everything is pre-milled by coffee grinder.(im back to useing lead balls, but just in case someone's freaking out with the lead, it will work that way coated, but depends) i guess you could even coat some lead balls with layers of rubber of some sort, similer to mouse balls(exept lead, not steel!)

[bobkeyes]

Couldn't I coat them with PlastiDip or something similar? Maybe liquid electrical tape?

 

Is the lead that detrimental to the BP?

[Mumbles]

Coating the lead in rubber sounds pretty detrimental in my opinion. Taking a solid metal and coating it with something that has give and bounce would ruin the effect. You'll never be able to grind anything as fine, or as efficiently. If you're worried about contamination, fill in copper tubes with it. You could also purchase 000 buckshot. It's hardened, and works very well, especially in these smaller mills. My KNO3 comes out much less grey than with 50 cal buckshot.

 

Honestly, if anything lead might make BP faster due to metal catalysts. It just scares some people due to the slightly poisonous smoke.

 

There should still be some ceramic going on ebay.

[bobkeyes]

I don't think I'm too worried about the lead balls, but I will look for the buckshot too.

 

Thanks guys. You all are really helpful.

[Twotails]

i use my lead uncoated for that reason, and im not crazy worried about the lead in the smoke(heh, i'd be much more worried of barium or Dichromate contamination then lead in my smoke) 000 buckshot? Hmm i'll have to look into that, and its not like you put the balls in and they suddenly "shrink" apon usage, they do shrink, but a takes quite a few batches to get them down quite a bit. I'd be more worried about my drinking water(amount of heavy metals-wise). I plan on gettting ceramic, but would rather have non-sparking SS. Mumbles, do you know what non-sparking steel is called/found by? (numbers or names, ect?) theres a factory up in the city that makes steel balls(all size's) and from what i heard they dont have a minimum order on account of the economy/ect. i want to see if they carry balls in that kind, and what price.

[Mumbles]

I believe the 300 series are supposed to be pretty non-sparking, but others may be better to interject on that matter.

[dagabu]

You are correct, the 300 series has the lowest carbon content.

 

Try this: Take the piece of SST you want to test and run it into a bench grinder wheel, the sparks (everything including copper makes sparks) should be a dull orange color. Non sparking is an OSHA designator, not an industry standard. What it means is that when two pieces of the same material are struck against each other, sparks will not appear.

 

SST does not meet the OSHA criteria for non sparking, therefore, caution should be taken and only comps with a high ignition temp (BP and the like) should be milled with SST.

 

"Non-sparking tools also generate sparks sometimes referred to as “cold sparks”. These cold sparks have a low heat level and do not ignite carbon disulfide, which has the lowest ignition point of any substance known to man. Therefore while “non-sparking” tools may lower the risk of a spark, they do not eliminate the possibility of sparks. The name "non-sparking" is misleading because these tools are capable of producing a spark: the term "reduced-sparking tools" better describes these tools"

-OSHA-

[angelluis]

Good tut, ive tried this method and it works well,have also tried pressing into pucks with a vice clamp works well to .I new to this art and look forward to trying new ideas and comparing them.

[orion7]

Question,

When did people stop using mortar and pestles and begin using ball mills to grind? Did it coincide with some weapons developments or new rifle types, or was it stand alone?

Sorry, I like history!

Thanks,

 

Chris

[Ralph]

Question,

When did people stop using mortar and pestles and begin using ball mills to grind? Did it coincide with some weapons developments or new rifle types, or was it stand alone?

Sorry, I like history!

Thanks,

 

Chris

 

A documentary I have on blackpowder manufacture in the UK seemed to mention the use of a wheel mill or a scraping style mill and not to mention a mortar and pestle at all. Im not sure sure if a mortar and pestle was ever considered a viable method of production

[NightHawkInLight]

Question,

When did people stop using mortar and pestles and begin using ball mills to grind? Did it coincide with some weapons developments or new rifle types, or was it stand alone?

Sorry, I like history!

Thanks,

 

Chris

I'm sure that the first inventors of black powder realized almost immediately that it burns faster when the components are of a finer particle size. They must have tried a handful of methods for grinding the components until they found what worked best with their current technology. That could have been a mallet and a rice sack for all I know, or it very well may have been a mortar and pestle.

 

I am not sure of this, but I don't believe the ball mill has ever been used for manufacturing black powder on a commercial level. It may not have been until hobbyists entered the picture looking for a way to make high quality black powder at home that ball mills were used. Commercially black powder is now made with a series of high pressure rotating rollers in something that looks similar to an old water or wind powered flour mill. Someone probably knows better than I, but that is the only way I have seen BP made commercially nowadays. I don't think any large BP manufacturers use ball mills.

Edited September 10, 2010 by NightHawkInLight

[Ralph]

I am not sure of this, but I don't believe the ball mill has ever been used for manufacturing black powder on a commercial level.

 

at 3.40-3.50 in the video we have 2 ball mills in a Spanish black powder factory

[NightHawkInLight]

And there you have it, wrong again. Thanks for the link Ralph. That's an incredible ball mill.

[jimbo]

nighthawk your not totally wrong, In my blackpowder book which is about english manufacture they make the meal powder in the way you described with heavy stone rollers in what looks like an oversized terracotta pot, there is also a machine that resembles a very large ballmill which is used to polish the grains and apply the graphite coating after corning which they empty into a hopper which screens the powder to different sizes for packaging directly into 1 pound tins or large sacks.

[Ralph]

nighthawk your not totally wrong, In my blackpowder book which is about english manufacture they make the meal powder in the way you described with heavy stone rollers in what looks like an oversized terracotta pot, there is also a machine that resembles a very large ballmill which is used to polish the grains and apply the graphite coating after corning which they empty into a hopper which screens the powder to different sizes for packaging directly into 1 pound tins or large sacks.

 

I wasnt saying his method wasnt used just that ball milling was used there are 1001 ways to make good black powder each with their advantages and disadvantages which each different factory may use most amateurs cant afford a large stone mill or a hammer mill but can easily make/buy a ball mill which provides comparable results

[jimbo]

yeah I agree with you ralph,the factory in the book I have is a pretty big factory which mills its meal powder wet and a ton or two at a time,do you think there are any factories that use ball mills for this scale of manufacture though.In a factory environment to me would sound dangerous dry milling with a ball mill especially large scale manufacture.

[Ralph]

In chemical engineering today a steady state process is much preferred to a batch process and so the hammer mill is preferred for particle size reduction and seeing as chemical engineers design and run these plants and that hammer milling is a safe method of making bp It would be safe to assume that thats what they do though most/all bp factories these days keep the secret of how they make their bp closely guarded.

[orion7]

Well I wouldnt have expected that! Thanks people

[dagabu]

According to Mike Swisher (the leading authority of pyro alive today) the wheel mill is the ideal commercial way of combining the ingredients since It is a continuous system in which the new mix is set in the path as the old is pushed out. It’s a lot more complicated then that in reality but it is essentially the same method used for the last 1000 years.

 

Ball mills are pretty new and suffer from the one flaw that wheel mills do not, containment.

 

 

[TheEskimo]

Has anyone been to the Hagley Museum? My family, on my mother's side, is the duPonts, of said chemical engineering and black powder fame. They have a really cool museum and historical village, complete with working wheel mills. They don't make BP there anymore, but a tleast one or two mills are kept in working order. It's a really neat place for anyone interested.