Black Powder

[Updup]

Okay everyone, i just made some granulated black powder and took some pictures, i hope to post them tomarrow.

 

Sleep tight =D

[derekroolz]

We are making coated rice hulls this weekend, do you want pictures for your tut?

 

D

 

 

YESS!!!!

[dagabu]

YESS!!!!

 

We got so carried away that I only took a few pix, sorry.

 

D

[Updup]

Okay, will eathier TheSidewinder, or Mumbles move the updated post on this page to be the first post?

 

Thanks.

[Updup]

I've found that by gloving my hand inside a baggie, I can get a better feel for the fineness of a substance, than if I just feel it between my fingers. Might be the callouses.

 

I agree, whenever i make some stars, i always wear one latex glove on my mixing hand for two resons 1. It make the whole thing alot less messy, and less comp sticks to the glove meaning i dont waste as much, and 2. Gives a good feeling when the comp is just at the right dampness, kind of spongy .

[jukka]

Honestly I'm (again ) little confused..

Please comment if I'm out of the track.

 

After reading tons of BP production (with my bad English) I hopefully this would be the way to proceed:

 

1) scaling materials

scale your materials into different containers (ill use digital scale 0,1g)

2) mixing

ballmill Sulfur and charcoal for x hours (depending on the ballmill) or use your mortar and screens to get as close as possible homogeneous mix

3) Then CIA method (pyroguide)

add your KNO3 to the pot (old one, not anymore in use for food obviously)

add water 10% of the weight of your KNO3 and start stirring until it good amount is dissolved

turn on the heat of your hot plate and continue stirring. Do this until all is dissolved to the water.

add charcoal and sulfur mix in the pot (heat still on) and continue mixing until everything is homogeneous

increase the heat little and bring this "soup" to the boiling point

let this mix cool down for 30min in the room temperature

put the pot back to the hot plate and heat to the boiling point while stirring well

Remove the pot from the heat and empty the contents into another pot filled with ice cold (I'm glad that outside the temp is now -21C )

alcohol; stir vigorously to make sure that everything is well mixed with the alcohol

add 2-3% of the mix DRY weight dextrin while again mixing

Line the empty cooking pot with the cloth strainer and transfer the powder/alcohol mix into it

4) Then create compressed bucks of the BP

load desired amount (depends on the size of your press) in to the pump and press it to the density of 1.7 g/cc

let the bucks totally dry

6) break the bucks and screen them for grain size u prefer.

 

 

 

In theory, will this be the path for the good quality BP?

Comments are highly appreciated.

[Updup]

That will get you good black powder, but, if you do have a ball mill you can skip half of those steps.

 

1. Weigh out your sulfur charcoal and KNO3, and put them all in your ball mill jar. (you can also pop in a few grams of dextrin here)

 

2. Ball mill your green mix for 3-12 hours, (Depending on your mill)

 

3. Add your water/alcohol mix till it JUST holds together, and press it through a hardware cloth.

 

4. Wait for it to dry

 

And your done!

[dagabu]

That will get you good black powder, but, if you do have a ball mill you can skip half of those steps.

 

1. Weigh out your sulfur charcoal and KNO3, and put them all in your ball mill jar. (you can also pop in a few grams of dextrin here)

 

2. Ball mill your green mix for 3-12 hours, (Depending on your mill)

 

3. Add your water/alcohol mix till it JUST holds together, and press it through a hardware cloth.

 

4. Wait for it to dry

 

And your done!

 

I agree with updup, dont use the CIA method, it's outdated and really messy. Screen the comp, ball mill, wet with (I use a little red gum) alcohol and rice (hardware cloth).

 

Fast easy and most important of all: Consistent

 

D

Edited December 18, 2009 by dagabu

[QED4803]

I would have to give a big X2, dagabu & updup.

 

On the red gum, it really does make a difference in the burn speed IF you don't use much.

 

1-1/2 to 2% max is all that is needed for helping the speed, more will make the grains tougher but the speed goes back down. Dissolve the red gum into the alky and proceed.

 

Really depends on what it's for, too. Some apps just don't require 'hot' BP, other apps might benefit.

I'm no authority (just a tyro pyro), but I've had very good luck using just 1% red gum and wetting with denatured alcohol. I found that it requires a bit more alcohol than I was initially inclined to use--the resulting mass should be putty-like. Granulating through 1/4" hardware cloth onto a cookie sheet spread with kraft paper and drying for at least 2 days results in some very serviceable pulverone. My first efforts were a bit crumbly, but I found that a bit more alcohol and sufficient kneading alleviated this problem.

 

I've done a lot of homework on black powder techniques and I'm fairly well convinced that pressing and corning has no benefit for the home-brew pyro--it merely makes the grains harder, which is important in the commercial product to preserve granularity through distribution, shipping, etc.

 

White pine scrap lumber has provided my best charcoal so far, but I have high hopes for some more exotic woods I've recently come by.

[dagabu]

I'm no authority (just a tyro pyro), but I've had very good luck using just 1% red gum and wetting with denatured alcohol. I found that it requires a bit more alcohol than I was initially inclined to use--the resulting mass should be putty-like. Granulating through 1/4" hardware cloth onto a cookie sheet spread with kraft paper and drying for at least 2 days results in some very serviceable pulverone. My first efforts were a bit crumbly, but I found that a bit more alcohol and sufficient kneading alleviated this problem.

 

I've done a lot of homework on black powder techniques and I'm fairly well convinced that pressing and corning has no benefit for the home-brew pyro--it merely makes the grains harder, which is important in the commercial product to preserve granularity through distribution, shipping, etc.

 

White pine scrap lumber has provided my best charcoal so far, but I have high hopes for some more exotic woods I've recently come by.

 

If you found a method that works for you, don't stop! I am glad you have mastered it, I am still looking for the perfect BP manufacturing and so far I can say that CIA is a PITA!! and red gum and denatured is the second best. Pressing and corning is fantastic for durability and consistency. The problem with red gum and corning is that as the grains crumble, the grains get smaller, the more bang, the more pressure.

 

D

[firetech]

If you want more bang, and that means smaller grains, why not granulate? That's what I do, and it's excellent. Corning has done nothing for me except slow down my bp. Apparently it's supposed to make the best, but it's really illogical if you consider some of the other things in pyro that are pressed. Star comps are slowed by pressing them or some form of condensation. Rocket motors are compressed too and as a result burn slower than the open powder.

[Mumbles]

Those aren't very good examples firetech. You're talking about compressing large amounts of composition into a single grain or star, so therefore pressed BP is inferior. You completely overlook the fact that granulating reduces surface area too. It would be better to compare pressed vs granulated BP of the same grain size. In the past I did some tests, and while they were very crude and probably not very valid, BP pressed to 1.7g/mL preformed the best. This was in comparison to granular BP, and densities of 1.4 and 2.0.

 

Corned BP has a few advantages in pyro.

 

1. More consistent and durable grains.

2. It is denser, so you can fit more in the same area

3. Sharp edges take fire well.

 

There are other reasons to granulate, such as faster and safer processing. There are less fines if you do it right. Additionally, there can be more of a spongy surface increasing the surface area.

[Pretty green flame]

If you want more bang, and that means smaller grains, why not granulate? That's what I do, and it's excellent. Corning has done nothing for me except slow down my bp

 

Really? Interesting. My Pressed black powder will always outperform my granulated powder of the same size. Also burn less sparky. The granulated will always throw some sparks from the charcoal, whilst the corned one will burn cleanly. I always press my powder.

[dagabu]

If you want more bang, and that means smaller grains, why not granulate?

 

Sorry, I guess I kind of left that impression?

 

I don't want more bang, I want more control. I have made BP so hot I really don't have any use for it but to coat cross match and black match. It is just too much for lift and it is too fast for rockets.

 

I want to know exactly what my powder is going to do every time and with red gum and DA, I can't tell due to crushing in storage and transportation.

 

There is empirical testing that has been repeated ad nauseum on BP and pressing and corning is by far the best overall process, to bad its such a PITA.

 

D

[firetech]

I was in your position last year when I switched over from Skylighter's mixed hardwood charcoal to my own. It became too fast for my methods and I had to make some changes. I'd rather be changing my rocket design than my bp though.

 

My pressed bp has always way under performed my granulated, so I stick with that.

[dagabu]

I was in your position last year when I switched over from Skylighter's mixed hardwood charcoal to my own. It became too fast for my methods and I had to make some changes. I'd rather be changing my rocket design than my bp though.

 

My pressed bp has always way under performed my granulated, so I stick with that.

 

Absolutely!!

 

If you find something that works, stick to it. I did get 35# of 2FA from Jon Blackert this fall for $1.43 a pound so I am taking the chicken way out for lift for the next year or so. I am only making BP for rice hulls, black match, cross match and am using fuse powder ($1.00 a pound) for BP rockets.

 

D

[firetech]

I have never burned commercial powder, but I'm sure it's quality. Whats the legal limit per individual? Isn't it 50#?

 

Whats the fuse powder?

[dagabu]

I have never burned commercial powder, but I'm sure it's quality. Whats the legal limit per individual? Isn't it 50#?

 

Whats the fuse powder?

 

Yup, AND you must be able to prove the use for having the powder, therefore my 1" cannon! I do believe that a household can have 50# max (varies by locality) and not 50# per individual. I keep real close track so a visit from the MAN won't get me into hot water.

 

Fuse powder is a specially formulated commercial powder that is used to make... FUSE!! It is around 7FA or Meal D in size and burns at a specific rate, this is rated for 116 seconds per meter, about 1/2 half the speed of Meal D.

 

D

Edited December 30, 2009 by dagabu

[Mumbles]

Does meal D really burn that fast? 116 sec/m is a shade over 3 seconds an inch. I ASSumed that the powder gets compacted to a single grain and would burn about like meal in a spolette. Then again, I guess meal in a spolette generally burns faster than 3 seconds an inch. And in fuses, it probably isn't all that compacted. Probably like the powdery chinese fuse rather than the shiny solid American visco core.

[dagabu]

Does meal D really burn that fast? 116 sec/m is a shade over 3 seconds an inch. I ASSumed that the powder gets compacted to a single grain and would burn about like meal in a spolette. Then again, I guess meal in a spolette generally burns faster than 3 seconds an inch. And in fuses, it probably isn't all that compacted. Probably like the powdery chinese fuse rather than the shiny solid American visco core.

 

Looks like you just answered your own question, and my wife says I am psychotic! Perfect world: 3" per second for time fuse and spolettes. It's listed in the tables section at Passfire.

 

D

 

(Correction: 116 seconds per yard, not meter)

 

http://addictedtoblackpowder.com/2.html

Edited December 30, 2009 by dagabu

[Ventsi]

A few tips from me:

 

I find that if you have the time and your mill isn't running, taking each ingredient and milling it for a good 5-6 hours drastically cuts down an the time it takes to mill your BP.

 

Say you have that sugar like KNO3, charcoal thats still lumpy and sulfur prills. Milling everything down ahead of time saves you time whae you really need some BP in an hurry, and you have ingredients that you can use right away for glitter an streamer formulas.

 

Yes, there's always the fact that you KNO3 will cake up like no tomorrow.

But then again, I find that after milling my charcoal, it really cuts down on the volume and amount of airborne particles. I think it gets pounded down so its a bit denser and doesn't float away as easily.

[50AE]

Some pyros say that ball milling integrates the black powder into the charcoal, they also say it must be integrated to make the powder burn properly. For me, this is not true. The goal is to mill the chemicals as fine as you can. For example, I mill my KNO3, charcoal and sulfur separately as Ventsi says, it's very useful. Only with the screening of the 3 chemicals 5 times through a 20 mesh screen, I obtain a very fast meal powder, visually it has the same speed as the ballmilled. But of course, I put it in 20 minutes in the mill to obtain a most homogeneous mix and to break all the lumps, even the smallest ones

[Bonny]

Some pyros say that ball milling integrates the black powder into the charcoal, they also say it must be integrated to make the powder burn properly. For me, this is not true. The goal is to mill the chemicals as fine as you can. For example, I mill my KNO3, charcoal and sulfur separately as Ventsi says, it's very useful. Only with the screening of the 3 chemicals 5 times through a 20 mesh screen, I obtain a very fast meal powder, visually it has the same speed as the ballmilled. But of course, I put it in 20 minutes in the mill to obtain a most homogeneous mix and to break all the lumps, even the smallest ones

 

 

I individually mill KNO3 and charcoal for comps, have never bothered with the S. As for BP, I usually plan ahead enough to never need to rush on that, so all ingrediants go in as-is.

[jimbo]

with willow charcoal I just mill it until you can't see any specks of sulfur or about 3hrs,thats in a rock tumbler, balsa wood charcoal kicks arse over anything i've tried its the most powerful blackpowder i've ever made,i would say its easily comparible to commercial blackpowder if ball milled

[bobkeyes]

Thanks to all for this tutorial. I am new to this and am reading as much as I can.

 

Thanks again.

 

Bob Keyes