radiorecker Posted June 9, 2006 Posted June 9, 2006 I am having a problem making black powder and lift powder, not really sure what im doing wrong so maybe somone can help me out in time for the 4th its mostly my lift powder im having problems with here, heres how i make it i take and mill for 3-5 hours50 charcoal43 s after thats done i mill for 3-5 hours 26 charcoal/s mix74 kno3 it seems to burn just fine at this point but having a problem lifting any thing like if i take a 20 gram dummy shell and 20 grams of lift powder it only lifts about 20 feet or so i have also mixed in hot water with little or no affect please someone help me and point me in the right dircetion as i need to make some lift for the 4th thank you
inkjet Posted June 9, 2006 Posted June 9, 2006 Well, first of all, is the powder granulated? Because, if it's not granulated, it's not lifting powder. Second of all, if the shell doesn't fit tight in the tube, it will get very little height. Those are are the only reasons i can think of, but i'm still new to good BP myself.
radiorecker Posted June 9, 2006 Author Posted June 9, 2006 yes i have granulated it and there is about 1/16" clearance on each side if that on the dummy shell
inkjet Posted June 9, 2006 Posted June 9, 2006 Well, in lifting small cake inserts with commercial lift, 1/16 on each side of a 5/8" insert was way too big. Try to just tape around it for the dummy shell, but for a real shell i'd just paste it more. This will also result in a larger break.
Mumbles Posted June 9, 2006 Posted June 9, 2006 Either it's a typo, or you're using too much sulfur. It should be around 33, not 43. If it's not a typo, this could be the problem. Also, what mesh is it granulated too. This will have a big effect on it's lifting ability.
radiorecker Posted June 9, 2006 Author Posted June 9, 2006 ok this is not a typo and ill try to use less next time the mesh is powder or as close as i can get it thanks for the help ill defently try that any other help would be greatfull
Mumbles Posted June 9, 2006 Posted June 9, 2006 For lift, I would try granulating it somewhere between 10 and 20 for starters. The mesh size may already be too small for it to effectivly lift anything.
Canadian_Pyro Posted June 10, 2006 Posted June 10, 2006 Use a window screen to granulate it, you should have much better luck with that.
radiorecker Posted June 10, 2006 Author Posted June 10, 2006 no extra white powder in there just the wax paper its drying on
Pyrohawk Posted June 10, 2006 Posted June 10, 2006 Ok....first off.... I don't like the set up. Why do you mill the charcoal and sulfur togethor first before adding the KNO3?? The whole thing kinda confuses me to be honest. Anyhow, assuming I deciphered the ratios right I think you have way to much S and to little Charcoal. Just remember the formula for black powder is 75%KNO3, 15%C, and 10% S. So just mix up batches of 75g KNO3, 15g C, and 10g Sulfur.....pour it all togethor and mill it. If you insist on milling the C and S togethor for some reason just keep it at a 2:3 S:C ratio but your just making it more complicated than necessary. Also I agree with Mumbles grain size and also try pressing rather than granulating and you'll be amazed!! Al93535 convinced me to try it and its worlds better!! When I granulated I had to use about 1/4 the weight of my shell to get decent heighths!! With the pressed I only need 1/10 - 1/12 the weight of the shell and my BP is weak compared to others.
Canadian_Pyro Posted June 10, 2006 Posted June 10, 2006 Milling the charcoal and sulfur together significantly reduces the length of time that all 3 ingrediants are in the mill at once, thus reducing the chance of you mill blowing up. It is a good practice to follow.
radiorecker Posted June 11, 2006 Author Posted June 11, 2006 well i thank you all for the input here it has really helped me out, but my powder is still not where i want it to be, unable to get the mesh that big as i dont have any screen bigger then about 40-50, window screens in my house are the small kind, ill see about picking up some bigger stuff some time this weekend as far as where i got the recipie is from my dad who has been working with this stuff a little longer, but not much. lol i thought his stuff was good untill i have really been reading this form i will defently try mixing up some reg BP then just granulating it to make lift ill let yiou guys know how it turns out
radiorecker Posted June 11, 2006 Author Posted June 11, 2006 oh if i press BP do i do it the same way i would press stars ?? if so what size should i make them? i know more about sizes like 1/4" compared to mesh sizes i have not got that good yet lol
FrKoNaLeaSh1010 Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 You need to press it into a puck like a hockey puck using a press that can create a couple hundred pounds of force. the optimal density is 1.4g/cm3 if i remember correctly....you then take these pucks and break them up and size out the mesh you want for lift.
justanotherpyro Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 That picture is screwing up the page. It makes it really wide. As for the lift thing, no doubt that the bigger grains are better, but I launched a 292g 4" dummy shell to equal heights with 2 different sizes. The first was 20g 50% fine black powder mixed with really small granules that would pass through a 16 mesh screen, and the second was 20g of the granules that would pass through an 8 mesh screen. Both were sieved from the same pressed BP puck. There is a definite difference in the sizes of lift but the fines and small granules lofted a 4" shell to an extroidanary height just fine. So if your BP will barely launch an object with 20 grams then it is really shitty. A major thing that affects the quality of my BP is the mixing before ball milling. I mix all the chemicals thoroughly through my 16 mesh screen along with stirring them well. This makes better BP and cuts down on the milling time. I typically do 500g batches at a time.
radiorecker Posted June 11, 2006 Author Posted June 11, 2006 well i havnt yet built my press could i just use a copper tube, dowel and hammer? i would rather use pvc but only have copper laying around as far as the pic goes sorry its the smallest my camera will take 1.8, if i knew how to size it down i would have
radiorecker Posted June 11, 2006 Author Posted June 11, 2006 also with pressing do you have to get the powder wet or can you just dry press it? i would rather use wet powder as it makes it more powerfull
justanotherpyro Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 Wet. Use 10% by weight with a 25:75 or so solution of alcohol/water. Metal is better because it can handle the pressure. Try and rig up a press with a jack, a metal cap and pressing it under an RV or something else heavy. You may be suprised what you can jury rig.
Pyrohawk Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 Optimally you would have a nice press to press your powder but if your a redneck pyro like me there are other ways. What I do is cut a PVC (any pipe will do though) about 5" long. Then I cut out 2 cardboard and 2 wooden discs that will fit the pipe well. You'll also need a dowel. I put the wood disc down, then 1 cardboard disc, then I lay a piece of wax paper or thin plastic like trashbag over that. Now put the pipe down over the disc stack. Pour your BP in now, I just mix in about 2% dextrin and dampen it very slightly. The BP should just be damp not wet. Now put some plastic in, then the remaining cardboard disc, and finally the last wooden disc. Now for the press I use a Bench Vice. It won't get optimum densities but pretty darn close! So put the tube (loaded) in the vice with the dowel placed on one side of the vice and in the center of the wooden disc. Now just tighten the vice as hard as you can!! Use some muscle!! When you can't turn it anymore use a hammer and wack the handle so it turns about 1/2 turn. There ya go.....let it stay in ther for like 2 hours (tighten every half hour or so because it will loosen up). take it out and let it dry!! Is that hard to understand?? If so I'll take a picture of what I mean.
Canadian_Pyro Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 Pressing makes the BP grains stronger, but it does not make it faster or more effective at lifting. Polverone is often faster and better at lifting shells. Polverone also tends to return to a powder quite easily, so pressed BP does have its advantages.
justanotherpyro Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 Pressing black powder will increase its performance and lifting capability immensely. I have tried both. Plain corning, and then corning a pressed puck. 5 grams from a pressed puck will shatter my heavily reinforced easter egg shells, 5 grams of wetted and corned meal will pop it out of the tube 50 feet.
al93535 Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 I agree, pressed and corned BP works alot better in my opinion. I get better lift, and a faster burn. Since I did a few tests, I always corn my BP for lift. You get hard, dense grains that you can size without breaking.
Canadian_Pyro Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 2 grams of my polverone, depending on the charcoal used, will lift a 35 gram dummy shell 200-400 feet in the air, give or take a few feet. Sometimes I lose the shells due to the immense altitude reached when using reactive charcoals. Pressing gives similar results, but is a waste of time for me. Pressing improves the durability of the grains, not the performance. Polverone often performs better, but breaks down into a powder quite quickly.
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