Goex 2F makes my powder look Really Bad!

[stug161]

So I had been lifting my stars from a small tube on the back patio. One at a time. So basic and simple yet so fulfilling. My ball mill will be here friday and thats exciting! I got some Goex 2F powder to hold me over. I had been using 3 grams of my un milled green powder, granulated. It was taking 3 grams to lift my 2 gram stars forty feet. I had to use wadding on the top and it was less than amazing. However, I used 1 gram of the commercial, and I think it completely blew my star apart... I scaled it back to .4 grams/2 gram star with no wadding. Just sitting on top of the powder. I would say they shoot about 60 feet into the air! That is crazy.. Maybe my skylighter airfloat charcoal is holding me back too. This weekend will give me the opportunity to mill a nice homemade batch. I tried .6 grams, and it too destroys my star. The sound is so much different too. Deep phoof instead of a slow hiss..

 

 

Ball mill hurry up!!

 

Thanks, Robert

[lodcomm]

So I had been lifting my stars from a small tube on the back patio. One at a time. So basic and simple yet so fulfilling. My ball mill will be here friday and thats exciting! I got some Goex 2F powder to hold me over. I had been using 3 grams of my un milled green powder, granulated. It was taking 3 grams to lift my 2 gram stars forty feet. I had to use wadding on the top and it was less than amazing. However, I used 1 gram of the commercial, and I think it completely blew my star apart... I scaled it back to .4 grams/2 gram star with no wadding. Just sitting on top of the powder. I would say they shoot about 60 feet into the air! That is crazy.. Maybe my skylighter airfloat charcoal is holding me back too. This weekend will give me the opportunity to mill a nice homemade batch. I tried .6 grams, and it too destroys my star. The sound is so much different too. Deep phoof instead of a slow hiss..

 

 

Ball mill hurry up!!

Thanks, Robert

 

 

Hi Robert,

 

I often use skylighter airfloat charcoal in my black powders and it works just fine, you can see a demo of some skylighter based BP I made at:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPGpzDWOwuQ

 

 

You will find that the quality of the BP you make increases dramatically when you ball mill it. Even low quality charcoal will make decent BP if you are patient and mill it long enough. Granulating your meal will improve its performance immensely. Also keep in mind that if your goal is to make a useful "lifting" black powder then making it as fast as possible is not always your goal, Instead I would strive to come up with a formula that you can consistently reproduce that way you dont have to repeatedly test each batch for its lifting and bursting characteristics, and better spend your time refining your stars and such - I have made some balsa wood, and sumac (close relative of the "tree of heaven") Black Powders that appear to burn almost like flash powder. These black powders, while novel in nature (and fun to make as well!) were nearly useless as lifting charges as they would surely flowerpot all but the strongest (structurally) shells. My general all purpose meal powder/Black powder I make from good old skylighter airfloat and it has served me well over the years. Plus, I have always loved the looks of skylighter airfloat in my tiger tails, it makes for a fine effect. I always keep a few lbs in the chemical locker.

 

-cheers

 

todd

Edited August 20, 2009 by lodcomm

[flying fish]

Commercial corned powder is hot stuff...Great for lifting with minimal amounts.

 

You'll find that homemade is far, far more cost effective though, even if more of it is required to lift shells. Like...more than an order of magnitude more cost effective. Granted, that doesn't take into consideration the time that you'll put into making and refining it. But that's part of the fun!

[Arthur]

DIY BP is even more cost effective! Get the BP right before you move on to better projects.

[Swede]

Yep, it's all in the milling and granulation. You will be SHOCKED at how well your correctly milled BP will work. Skylighter AF charcoal is fine for many uses.

 

Using a mill to make BP is like magic to me. Add the raw ingredients - sugary or prilled KNO3, lumpy charcoal, crappy sulfur. Turn on the switch. Come back in 4 to 24 hours to excellent BP (that still needs ricing or corning). You're in for a real treat. It's like those bread machines. Toss the crap in, get a nice crusty loaf of delicious bread.

[Twotails]

I have a question, for one to get commercial BP like Goex 2F powder were would i find it? and would one need an FID to buy it?

[TheSidewinder]

Not sure what the laws are these days with respect to age. 21, I think.

 

You can buy commercial Fg powders at most gun shops. It's just muzzleloading BP.

 

Commercial Fa powders require an ATF permit.

[PoorBoy]

I know in florida there is only one store that sells it as all permits in state were pulled except bass pro shops in south florida. I was unsucessful in buying it from them because they require that the muzzle loader is present so they can verify it requires real bp instead of the new and safer imitation bp. At which point in time they write down the serial number on the gun before they will sell it to anyone. Its legal to make it and store up to 50 lbs in my home... but i cant buy it. Go figure, I guess ATF decided its safer for people to make it at home than to buy it and drive home with it lol. Besides you can make it for 25% the cost of buying it. Do the math your ball mill will pay for it self in no time.

[flying fish]

Technically I think you need a magazine that meets certain specs to legally store homemade blackpowder.

 

As for commercial powder, the bass pro shops by my house sold it to me no problemo, they did ask me what I was loading, and I told them I was using it for fireworks. They did warn me "to be careful" because "what you're doing is probably illegal." Then they proceded to sell it to me without further questions. This is in michigan though...we're a little less paranoid up here apparently.

 

Edit: You could always say you are using it for an antique cannon replica or something. Those are legal, require "real" BP, and could in theory be too heavy to "wheel" into the store with you. Granted, big cannons would use cannon grade, not FFG.

Edited August 24, 2009 by flying fish

[Arthur]

Go and read one or more of the threads on making your own BP. If the process is acceptable in your area then you will find that home made BP can be very satisfying and economical. You must learn how to make it well and accurately.

 

The big advantage of commercial BP is reliability and repeatability. they make batches -some come faster or slower than standard like DIY powder. They then test the batches for speed and MIX the batches to get the standard speed and performance for which thay are known. This means that there may be several tons of powder of severai speeds waiting to be used which is not a suitable practise for home use!

 

BP is always milled to create an intimately mixed dust at least talc fine, then made into granules with specific mesh cuts in the 4 - 100 mesh region. The charcoal is possibly the most important part then the milling time and method. A small mill may show product improvement for up to 24hours of milling.

 

Good reliable repeatable BP is the KEY to good pyro. It is lift and break and rocket fuel!

[Twotails]

Just got my Ball mill today from cannon fuse, it looks great. when i took it out, seemed kinda small, but when i opened it, it looks just right. Now all that i need to do i get some media, i think i'll try $2 in nickels untill i cast my own ( or buy them, i'll ask mom to stop by a gunshop and ask if they have lead balls for a ball mill, or Bismith.) I'll see what is required to get BP from them(FID, permit, ect).

 

also, any clue how long 100g of BP would take to mill/ how much grinding media i would need?

 

Soon i'll be making some nice BP^^

[Arthur]

Lead from the tyre bay, scrapyard or builders merchant can be melted with a blowtorch into moulds intended for fishing weights, a size round 15 - 20mm will usually be OK you need about half a mill jar full. Then you put granular ingredients in the drum til they just cover the balls.

 

Realistically most milling occurs where the balls touch each other and rub, so you need enough balls to have twoish layers in the jar

Edited August 24, 2009 by Arthur

[stug161]

My ball mill arrived today too.. Well, the dual drum tumbler from harbor freight. I too am short on media.. Pretty silly I didnt have it already.. Super fast BP here we come!!

 

 

Robert

[Twotails]

Guys, great news, Theres a gunshop ( for got to ask about BP, but what ever) Just over the border right before thomas CT. I bought some Lead-Anitimony Musket balls ( well to be exact, there Warren "Rifle Round Ball" 58 cal. 278 GR. .570 DIA. )its 50 balls for $7.55, so i got two. the guy who owns the store ( its called Bills Gun&archery pro shop, and the guy, you guessed it is named bill) said he's had a few people come in looking for lead musket balls, saying they need them for a ball mill. He brang me over to the case, and showed the diffrent sized balls to me. He asked what size mill i had, and i told him a small 3lb mill, and he said these would work fine. ( he did have slightly smaller balls, and some larger ones, from $4.48- to around $8.99) He had them in all shapes and sizes, from rods, to eggs, to you name it. He has Lead shot (seemed to be the right size for rolling stars, but its $35.00 for a large bag (about 10 or more lbs of lead).) I might be back next week to get diffrent sized media. ( bet he had bismith shot/balls also, but i dident look) i'll make sure to look better next time. at about $16 for media, you cant beat it. ( no shipping, no messing with hot lead. I would have paid more online! $21.00 +S+H, per 100 lead balls at most places.)

[Arthur]

Good find! Just be careful what you can take across borders. Access to commercial BP would make life easy, but a good mill is still a feature of pyro for ingredient sizing for stars etc.

[Twotails]

So far, everything I've gotten from that gun shop is legal in mass.

[Swede]

Besides you can make it for 25% the cost of buying it. Do the math your ball mill will pay for it self in no time.

 

You make an excellent point, but the real cost is even cheaper, more like 10%. Homemade BP is scary-cheap. Let's do the math, for fun.

 

KNO3: We'll say $1.50 per pound. It can be bought in bulk for much less.

Charcoal: Free, make it yourself

Sulfur: Excellent rubbermaker's sulfur is $5 per pound. Crappy sulfur is 1/3 that.

 

Goex goes for maybe $15 per pound these days. The homemade stuff is $1.12 + $0.5 or $1.62 per pound, and it can definitely be made cheaper. And better than Goex, too! I shudder to think of the cost of making fireworks in any decent quantity using commercial BP.

 

You can mail-order Goex from many places, like this one, if in the U.S. and in a free State, rather than a slave state:

Goex BP.

[flying fish]

When I was a very small-scale pyro, I could get away with commercial BP because I only used a pound a year. That was a $20 a year investment from my local bass pro shops. Actually, the price had gone up about $4 a year while I was buying it! It started at $16, then the next year was $20, then next year must have been $23 or $24. I had converted my old tumbler into a coin mill, which worked, but couldn't produce lift-quality BP except in very small quantities (100 grams max) and with long milling times - so I typically stuck with the commercial stuff for lift.

 

Now that I have a "real" ball mill, I make my own lift because it costs practically nothing and it does the job quite well.

 

The key advantage with commercial is that it is highly consistent...for certain applications it's nice to have around. Of course buying it from the store is going to be astronomically expensive, slightly less so if you do a group buy with the locals from one of the online suppliers. Speaking of which, I thought mumbles said he uses commercial for lift, I did wonder how he affords it/ where he buys from. I believe 25 lbs of DiamondBack BP costs $250 shipped, that would last the average pyro a little while.

 

That said, I think for 99% of applications homemade is better for cost reasons, and could in itself be made highly consistent if you press and corn it. Not that I have any intentions on doing such though. Pulverone is just too easy to make .

[Mumbles]

... Speaking of which, I thought mumbles said he uses commercial for lift, I did wonder how he affords it/ where he buys from....

 

 

What else do you think I use the donations for?

 

Blasting grade powder (2FA, etc) is much cheaper than the sporting grades. $7-10 a pound. I doesn't have to be quite as consistent as it's not designed to be used in firearms. To buy it, you need a license, so there's no added regulations over the past few years either which have contributed to rising costs of Fg. I really don't use all that much, maybe 2-3 pounds a year. I have a new mill, so hopefully I wont have to buy anymore.

[flying fish]

A few lbs a year at that price doesn't sound bad at all. I guess if your average shell weight is say, 0.5 lb, you could lift 20 shells with a pound. Which makes me wonder where all my Goex went, considering that I was lifting much smaller shells...and not very many. I'd use less than 5 grams a lift on my 1.75" ball shells, and I made maybe 30 or so of those a year. That accounts for less than half the 1 lb can!

 

Musta been those pesky BP nomes...

 

I also seem to vaguely recall myself dumping some into a snowman's head one winter...

Edited August 25, 2009 by flying fish

[scarbelly]

I figured I wouldn't bother to start a new topic, because my question is pretty simple.

 

I was just wondering, if you're in a pinch, is it possible to use Meal Coated Rice Hulls as a lift powder? Obviously I would account for the mass of the hulls to get the mass of the black powder for weight measurement. I just got to thinking, because I made my first MCRHs and it was super easy. Although I guess granulating isn't really all that difficult either... Thanks!

 

 

Scarbelly

[mike_au]

I think it would work, but it wouldn't be ideal

 

Shells are a fixed volume, you want to fill that volume with just enough powder to break it and no more (more powder means more weight and more cost). The carrier is just there to take up space and not be heavy.

 

For lift you aren't concerned about weight, and you don't have a fixed volume (in fact you want very little volume between the bottom of the shell and the base of the mortar to get the best efficiency).

 

Both MCRH and granulated powder burn fairly quickly so I guess you would probably get enough kick out of it.

 

Give it a go, if it works then you know you have the option, personally I think it is easier to just make granulated powder.

[Arthur]

Lift and Burst are both BP but differently optimised it may well work, but not the same as BP granulated for lift.

 

Just NEVER try other uses for whistle. I once saw the wreckage after someone misused whistle as lift. There was a hole where the ground had been and just a few bits of the GRP mortar could be found.

[scarbelly]

Of course, I know enough to never use anything other than black powder for lift. And obviously I wouldn't be doing it everytime, just if it turned out I needed to finish something up quickly and had some rice hulls left but not enough granulated BP. I saw that inthat test for powerful black powder that Ned Gorski did on Skylighter, one of his lift powders was MCRH, and it seemed to work pretty well. Anywho, thanks for all the help!

[Twotails]

I figured I wouldn't bother to start a new topic, because my question is pretty simple.

 

I was just wondering, if you're in a pinch, is it possible to use Meal Coated Rice Hulls as a lift powder? Obviously I would account for the mass of the hulls to get the mass of the black powder for weight measurement. I just got to thinking, because I made my first MCRHs and it was super easy. Although I guess granulating isn't really all that difficult either... Thanks!

 

 

Scarbelly

 

 

 

Honestly, the only two problems i could see someone faceing, is you would have to test how much MCRH needed to achieve that same lift, and that MCRH would occupy more space then granulated BP, and you wouldent have as much space in the tube.