Makeshift Flashbang?

[Switch3Z]

Hello everyone. I'm a Police Officer here in Georgia, and I have a love for very simple pyro. I'm not an expert by any means. I was curious about something, however. When we clear abandon houses, or at alarm calls, we never use anything but a flashlight and our guns, unless of course, it's a felony in progress. Now, I started thinking about it a few weeks ago....what if we had small, reliable, and CHEAP makeshift versions of a flashbang grenade (on a much smaller scale) to throw into a window before we enter these places? A flashbang grenade is certainly way to expensive to be using for "small-deal house clearings" 2-3 times a night.

 

So I guess my question would be, what's the best way to create a small, extremely loud blast with minimal flame and debris? I don't want anything catching on fire, but I want something effective I might be able to create, and keep in my cruiser if needed.

 

MAXIMUM:

Flash

Loud Bang

 

MINIMUM:

Debris

Flame

Price

Effort needed to build multiple items

 

I know this sounds extremely odd, but anyone in law enforcement might agree it could be useful in certain situations. I'm thinking with my wallet here as well.

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Switch3Z

[Aneantis]

A small 'bermuda' firecracker with 5 gram (or less) tunderbolt flash. It gives a loud report with a very bright flash. And with a bermuda you don't have much debris, just some tape and paper flying arround.

 

héhé indeed its very odd to tell this to an officer.

 

 

Tunderbolt, photoflash

(used in flashbombs in ww2)

 

percent component

40.00% Potassium Perchlorate

34.00% Magnesium (100 mesh)

26.00% Aluminium (dark, pyro)

 

Because it has alu & mg it has a great light out-put

Edited June 22, 2009 by Aneantis

[Switch3Z]

It's amazing how you guys know all about this stuff. I never did very well in chemistry. I'll stick to the simple stuff unless you can break it down into kindergarten terms.

 

I'll try to look for those, it sounds exactly like what I'm looking for.

[Aneantis]

Héhé my chemistry isn't that good, I'm a student in sociology/politics .

 

Anyway, a bermuda is a special way of making firecrackers. It's made with only a few strips of paper fold in a special way(search google for a folding-guide.)

 

The powder that is used, is flash powder (caution!) its dangerous to make flashpowder. You have to daiper the chems (putting it on a sheed of paper and carefully mix them with the paper). And not more then 5-10 grams at once! Flash powder of this kind doen'st need much of confinement to explode so be pay attention to static-electricity. The metal, german dark is a very fine powder that is dangerous too because it could cause alzheimer on the long term when it is inhaled, or for dust-explosions.

 

Hm, I think there is a safty list somewhere? Before you use this stuff, you better read a few safty-doc's.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Aneantis

[jasontaylor]

Sounds good but I don't think your CLEO would approve. Liability for a home made pyro device in law enforecment could be bad juju.

[Arthur]

There are lots of answers BUT being in possession of an improvised explosive device without type approval for the purpose would almost certainly land you in a badge free, salary free, pension free world. Try your supplies dept see if they have a supplier of an item for this purpose. If the need is peculiar to your area then supplies from the military may be a way to go, by arrangement through a very senior officer.

 

Being the officer responsible for accidentally demolishing a building may be career negative. You may wish to do so, but you cannot find it in your training notes!

[Aimlesspayload]

...If a cop threw what is essentially an improvised explosive at me I would sue the city for more than the cop is worth. This is a joke right?

[Switch3Z]

Everyone's so quick to sue these days. Seriously though, if it didn't cause any damage and was only for the element of surprise. My intentions aren't to throw it at anyone.

 

But never mind, I think my questions been answered. Thank you Aneantis.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Switch3Z

[Mumbles]

Despite Aimlesspayload acting like an asshole, he does have a very valid point. I understand the desire for such a device, but the logistics (insurance mainly), would tend to make this impossible. Whether you are a police officer or not, these kind of devices are still illegal to manufacture, much less use. There is no such thing as a safe flash bang. These will still singe carpet, and have the possibility to start fires, as well as being dangerous if an individual is too close.

 

There is a lot of testing and approval that goes into the full sized ones, and these would not be exempt. Until said testing happens, you'd probably be in more trouble than if one of us were to throw an explosive into a person's home.

[Switch3Z]

Good point. Scratch that idea.

[optimus]

I can see the headlines now

 

It's an entertaining thought - not practical in reality though.

 

Mabye buy a ridiculously overpowered flashlight - would be a way to temporarily disorient people without getting into lawsuit territory?

[swervedriver]

My brothers a cop. They mess with the crackheads all the time doing less than legal stuff. That would be funny as shit to sneak up on them in an abandoned structure and throw a few bangers in on them. hahaha, who cares, no one takes the word of an addict over the trolls anyhow, lol. That would scare the hell out of them...

[Rogue Chemist]

Mabye buy a ridiculously overpowered flashlight

 

http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Wicked_Lights-74-0.html

[Switch3Z]

http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Wicked_Lights-74-0.html

 

If only I had the money, lol. We don't get paid much.

[Dr Boom]

I am a little surprised at the level of professionalism displayed here- if someone has a legitimate discussion to bring up- don't be so quick to judge. Everyone would have been more upset if Switch3z stated at a much later time that he was LE. I think that puts him on the level by fairly saying so ahead of time.

 

And last time I looked, "information" was not against the law unless you stole it. Mumbles brings up a very good point with using the device. There ARE many considerations with using such an item in the US but I can tell you (and I do not speak offically for any military service) we throw a lot more dangerous things into people's homes on foreign soil that many do not walk away from. I think that Switch3z, by trying to devise a much less lethal device, is making a noble effort to ask the right people. But that's my take...

[Arthur]

I don't doubt the usefulness of such an item, However such a device officially issued,, or one home made would have two totally different responses if there was ever an inquiry.

 

The use of one issued by the police armourer, would be considered legitimate, The use of a DIY version would probably cost an officer his good standing and his job salary and pension. hence the reason I would discourage Switch3Z from making a device that we all know would get us into deep trouble if one of us were to throw it into a crowded space. Oh yes, as well as the IED problem there is the striker. Are we going to suggest that Switch3Z also purchases red phosphorus to make strikers too with all the drug cook connotations that may harm his(?) career. That the military run a very different style of operation is very obvious. -See our now vintage Iranian Embassy hostage situation hostages and terrorists police negotiaion fails first hostage gets shot SAS go in through walls roof and windows all remaining hostages released alive terrorists shot dead bar one. Building left as a burning blasted wreck but all hostages out. The difference between a civil op and a military op.

[Switch3Z]

Well, perhaps some day once I'm actually properly educated in the correct use and creation of pyro, I'll try to figure out a cost-effective version of the flashbang. Until then, the points here are well-put, and I will NOT be attempting this. It IS something I'd like to research, and perhaps develop down the road.

 

I appreciate everyones take in this matter, and it's nice to know there's a strong Pro-LE presence on this forum. I'm sure I'll have more questions.

 

Actually, I do have one regarding potassium nitrate and sugar. Dangerous to inhale?

[Mumbles]

Well, if you are trying to smoke it like crack rocks, or deliberately inhale, probably not the best for you. If you casually inhale smoke bomb smoke, it's not really an issue.

[Mindphreak]

Sugar isn't . KNO3 is mainly an irritant and I don't think a little bit will harm you. They use it in processing meats and fertilizers, just don't chow down on it.

If you're making smoke bombs dont burn the sugar if you melt it, else the whole thing will combust.

[Switch3Z]

ok great, thanks for the heads up.

[colniko]

Switch, I know at first glance it seems like a good idea and harmless but you should know that unfortunately we live in a liability driven world. ANY type of pyro device is going to be on a level of force above what your use of force matrix will allow for the scenarios you described.

 

With that being said, you may be interested in looking into a NON-pyro option such as the Thumper TG6. I still dont think you will ever in a million years get authorization from your administration to use any type of noise/flash diversionary device for the described situations. I dont want to change the direction of this thread, so if you answer the following questions the mods here may want it to go elsewhere.

 

What exactly are you looking to accomplish with the use of the NFDD? Keep in mind that the powers that be will ask if there is any non-force using options, which of course there are(Pole cam, robot, etc) which all just seems way out of context given the type of call you are responding to.

 

I'm not trying to rain on your parade or come off sarcastic. Its just been a bad couple of years for Law Enforcement it seems with all the cops doing stupid things and losing their jobs. Cops doing work for known criminal enterprises, stealing, killing, etc.. All this does is reinforce the negative ideas the public has about cops.

 

A million plumbers can go and commit crimes and no one will ever say, "Damn those plumbers! All dirty and on the take!" But just a small handful of cops committing the same crimes and all the sudden all cops are bad. All I am saying is, "Be smart. Its a thinking mans game"

 

It probably wouldnt hurt for you to talk to some of your SWAT/EOD guys at your dept. They could give you some suggestions and insight on the topic.

 

And last thing. Thanks. I appreciate what you do for the public. Police, Fire Fighters & Military are all very commendable jobs.

[DeepOvertone]

I lol'ed at the idea of someone snorting a line of kno3 and sugar. Obviously, he meant the smoke from a kno3/sugar smoke bomb but it still made me giggle.

[Plasmaniax]

I could do lots of tests for both me and you focusing on cheapness, and efficiency in no leftover materials from the device and flash + bang; also using just aluminum and potassium nitrate, as cheap materials. Making bermudas is also a good idea, but as others have said, using these at work would not be the best idea, but may be possible without anybody getting angry, especially if the people doing whatever drugs dont know what hit 'em. Tests with magnesium flash instead of aluminum flash for touch sensitive devices could happen too. Also maybe extremely fine powder versus very fine powder, as the extremely fine will probably light faster, maybe in milliseconds if possible. As long as i can exacerbate my creativity on pyrotechnic devices for a possible outcome of good i am happy. Hey maybe i can use these in airsoft too. Edited August 31, 2018 by Plasmaniax