Flash Question

[pyrorico]

Hi Guys,

 

I need a little help with my local WorkCover, I am currently trying to get some consumer fireworks authorised for sale here in Australia however the regulating body truly has no idea. Following is a formula that they are trying to tell me contains flash powder.

 

Potassium Nitrate 7

Potassium Perchlorate 40

Sulphur 1

Charcoal 2

Aluminium 20

Aluminium-Magnalium alloy 20

Phenolic Resin (Resinox) 10

 

I have tried to explain to them that with the addition of the other chemicals including the binder etc that this will not go Bang but is in fact a Silver Comet.

 

Any help with how I should explain this would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Eric

[murderskill]

Thats not looking like flash comp to me.

 

Here is an inexpensive, uncomplicated silver comet that is easy to mix and form into a nice hard pellet. It produces a kind of coarse, drippy tail due to the use of the granular aluminum.

 

 

 

Silver Comet Formula

Potassium Nitrate - 54

Air Float Charcoal- 8

Sulfur - 18

Granular Aluminum - 9

Magnesium/Aluminum Alloy- 3

Antimony Sulfide - 3

Dextrin - 5

 

Source of proof under Making Comets

http://www.skylighter.com/skylighter_info_...cle.asp?Item=57

 

Maybe if you give them the link and they would check it out for themselves?

[TheSidewinder]

Well.... until it's wetted and formed into whatever you are making, it *IS* a form of "flash", in that it contains perc and aluminum in ratios that are close enough to optimized flash to be dangerous. Adding sulfur makes it a bit more sensitive. I see their point there.

 

What solvent are you using? And does the resulting comet have a hard enough "shell" to prevent moisture from causing a problem?

 

If so, you should offer to demonstrate it to them. Maybe there's a latent pyro among the group?

 

M

[Boomer]

Tell them it's bound up by resin so it cannot mass-explode because the reaction cannot spread between the particles. It can only burn layer-wise from the surface.

 

Think of the AP propellant in the shuttle (perc, Al, resin), un-cured it is a HE, cured a propellant. That accident had other reasons, the stuff did NOT go high order!

 

Or quote smokeless powder: The pressed fibres or a *fine* powder were used for torpedos and equal TNT (6800 m/s), the horn like mass burns controllably in guns.

[iv81]

it *IS* a form of "flash", in that it contains perc and aluminum in ratios that are close enough to optimized flash

Ditto!! ^

 

 

 

Don't be a post whore.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Mumbles

[pyrorico]

What solvent are you using? And does the resulting comet have a hard enough "shell" to prevent moisture from causing a problem?

 

If so, you should offer to demonstrate it to them. Maybe there's a latent pyro among the group?

 

M

I'm not sure what solvent is being used, like I said this formula is from a consumer firework. The item name is "Electrical Storm" and it is manufactured by "Brothers" in china.

[iv81]

Don't be a post whore.

 

Mumbles, if you think I give a shit about my post count then you are way off your fucking head. I was merely supporting TheSidewinder opinion without retyping what he said, if you see a problem in that, then do something about it! Otherwise don't be an "edit whore" Thanks.

[FrKoNaLeaSh1010]

wow.....thats all I have to say about the above post. Anyway technically almost any perchlorate based comp with Aluminum is a flash comp in a powdered state. So that is probably what they are concerned about. Onl thing I can suggest Is informing about how it is to be bound and formed into the comet with a slow burnrate...explain the device fully and I dont see how they can deny it unless they are stuck up pricks.

[justanotherpyro]

Don't be a post whore.

 

Mumbles, if you think I give a shit about my post count then you are way off your fucking head. I was merely supporting TheSidewinder opinion without retyping what he said, if you see a problem in that, then do something about it! Otherwise don't be an "edit whore" Thanks.

You dumbshit.

 

Anyways, one thing you could look into is determining what they mean by " flash powder " meaning see what they believe flash powder is. A composition that can rupture a casing when lit on fire, something that burns at a certain speed etc... and then try and prove that the composition does not meet these circumstances therefore it is not flash powder.

[pyrorico]

Anyways, one thing you could look into is determining what they mean by " flash powder " meaning see what they believe flash powder is. A composition that can rupture a casing when lit on fire, something that burns at a certain speed etc... and then try and prove that the composition does not meet these circumstances therefore it is not flash powder.

I asked this question and he emailed me this..

 

For your information the definition of flash powder under the The Dangerous Substances (explosives) Regulation 2004, means; a pyrotechnic substance that is intended to produce a flash of light (whether or not with a report, smoke or sparks).

 

I have asked the question again, because from this definition they would not be able to define this formula as flash powder just from identifing the KClo4 + Al.

 

Following is what I have already told them about this formula..

 

In the case of “”Electrical Storm” this composition is even further from Flash powder then jumping cat, this is basically a black powder comet (Potassium Nitrate, Sulphur & Charcoal) with the addition of Aluminium (Fuel, White/Silver Colour), Aluminium-Magnalium Alloy (Fuel, White/Silver Colour) & Phenolic Resin (Binder) which makes this item react completely different to flash powder.

 

Thanks.

[Mumbles]

You may or may not care about your post count, but that still doesn't except you from not being able to post useless stuff. Don't post unless you have something to add to the conversation. If you don't agree with this, feel free to leave at your own will. Since you insisted, I did do something about it. All your posts must be moderator aproved before showing up. Have a nice day.

[Douchermann]

Pyrorico - I do believe that the composition you listed will not give a "flash" of light, but rather just burn brightly. You could argue this with them.

 

iv81 - Now you know: Don't f**k with mumbles

 

mumbles - Is that just a temporary thing for him? or permanent.

[Mephistos Minion]

I can vouch that the Aussie authorities don't know their shit. They banned morning glorys because they scorched paper...

 

The regulations are pretty bad, limiting fireworks to proffessional displays. Might I ask pyrorico, how are you importing these? I assume you are a reseller and have an import licence? Or a display operator?

[pyrorico]

Might I ask pyrorico, how are you importing these? I assume you are a reseller and have an import licence? Or a display operator?

I am a pyrotechnician that is helping out a new wholesaler, we are currently going through the process of getting our storage licenced and getting our import and supply licence issued in NSW.

[Boomer]

"They banned morning glorys because they scorched paper"

 

I thought morning glory is banned because it scorches your mind...

 

Rico, as I understand they come ready made from china, so technically it is not even a 'powder' but solid chunks. These can hardly burn instantly in a 'flash'.

[pyrorico]

In some of the documents that I have got back from ACT WorkCover they say that "The mixture of Potassium Perchlorate and Aluminium can be used to form flash powder" I understand this however once the following formula is mixed and rolled into stars, could you seperate the chemicals and make flash powder from the stars?

 

Electrical Storm - Silver Comet Comp

Potassium Nitrate 7

Potassium Perchlorate 40

Sulphur 1

Charcoal 2

Aluminium 20

Aluminium-Magnalium alloy 20

Phenolic Resin (Resinox) 10

 

Any help is greatly Appreciated...

[rocket]

The potassium perchlorate and the small amount of potassium nitrate can be extracted but crushing the comp up and putting it in warm water the perchlorate/nitrate would dissolve in the water the filter the contaminant out. The only problem I can see with this is the mesh of the metal powder they may go straight through the filter.

 

You might be able to just crush the comp up into a powder and it may burn at a similar rate to flash.

[Mephistos Minion]

What sort of Aluminium is it? Might want to talk to Acme, Howard and Sons or FOTI about this mate, I reckon they will be able to help.

[Exerd]

I simply recommend that you speak with another person who actually knows pyrotechnics/chemistry well. It doesn't sound like they care too much about details in their response...seems a little bland to me. Probably some email responder they have on the job copying and pasteing messages.

 

Your best bet is to find a composition that is already available in Australia which is legal, and much alike. Document and video tape the burning of both compositions. Send this video in with explaination of how they are similar.

 

The people you are talking to should be more educated on the subject than we are (or at least on par), but apparently are not. Thus it may take some teaching lessons towards them it may sound.

 

Elaborate every detail and aspect of the firework design you possibly can.

 

You need them to verify that a "flash" device must emit its light energy within a certain, and very short period of time. Once that is verified, it is apparent this is not a flash device due to the fact it cannot release its available light energy in an extremely short amount of time as a high intensity flash powder would. Even try and time the burn of the comets, and produce an average number so that you have statistics shown in real numbers fighting the fact that it doesn't yield a flash.