Mystery Powder

[firetech]

I was watching a video on the construction of Chinese firecrackers and they mention a powder which absorbs moisture from the air, then hardens into a solid plug. Anyone have any idea what they are using? I'd like to get my hands on some-it would probably be very useful.

[a_bab]

Kitty litter (bentonite) does pretty much the same thing. Chinese always aim for the (extreme) cheapest, and I doubt they'd use something too fancy.

[firetech]

It does, but it doesn't release it naturally like the clay the Chinese use. Could it be gypsum? I've heard similar results with it.

[popi1955]

mayby this one?

http://www.pyroguide.com/index.php?title=Pyro_adhesive

[stormyweathers]

is anyone going to confirm these guesses?

[Mumbles]

It's definitely not the pyro adhesive. That stuff is made as a paste, and the sodium silicate (liquid) is vital. Gypsum probably isn't far off. It'd have to be anhydrous gypsum though, so it would absorb water from the air and harden. It could be a benonite too, cooked dry.

 

Another thing I had heard is that they fill their tubes while they're wet, so that as it dries, it shrinks and consolidates the clay. That sounds like a load of BS to me though.

[firetech]

It almost seems to be something like concrete, but the water would ruin the powder, the casing and the fuse. I doubt I'll ever get to the bottom of this...

Or maybe it's the most obvious thing-so simple we think past it.

[PoorBoy]

I have a mystery powder question, i'm new to forums so if this is in the wrong place i apologize... anyhow, i obtained some potassium perchlorate, and basicaly i want to know if there is an easy way to determine if infact it is what it says it is. my concern isn't that i have chlorate instead of perchlorate or anything like that. I was just wondering if there is a simple test that will determine if its real or bunk.

[Ralph]

to test for chlorate take a small amount and put it on a piece of paper and add a drop of concentrated H₂SO₄ another decent test for chlorate is to take a small amount and place it on a hard metal surface and hit it with a hammer chlorate on its own will go off perchlorate will not (could but takes a far larger hit) and just to test if it is well made you can test if there are significant amounts of left over chloride (an indication of pour standards and should most definitely not be in perchlorate) is to make a solution with the chemical and than to add some silver nitrate if you get a white precipitate you have chloride present

[Mindphreak]

I think a fieldtrip to china is in order to find out first hand. APC sponsored?

[PoorBoy]

I ordered it so it came in a container labled perchlorate, but i have a feeling its fake... It doesn't seem to burn well by itself. I imagined it would at least sustain burning, it smolders and turns black, but no flame and very little reaction to heat. This is my first dealing with this chemical and before I actually try and put it in a composition i wanted to experiment with it in small amounts to see how it reacts. It reacts much like my old pet rock... either its fake or i have false expectations. What should it do if i take about 2 grams of it and apply flame to it with a scientific bic lighter?

[Ventsi]

Haha, perchlorates don't burn silly..

Not by themselves anyway , mix them with a fuel and they'll burn , sugar for example .Mix one flat teaspoon of perch. and sugar together and it should burn quite ferociously.

 

If you apply enough heat to the plain perch. , it will start melting and then probably decomposing, maybe into something black?

There are more precise tests for Perchlorates but those are out of my hands, one our more intelligent member might tell you perhaps?

[Mumbles]

Ok, time to correct some misconceptions.

 

Neither chlorate, nor perchlorate should burn on their own, much less sustain combustion. If they do, you have something weird going on.

 

When decomposed by heat, they should not turn black. The decomposition products are potassium chloride, and oxygen. It's possible that the propane torch is contributing soot, and that is the cause of the black color.

 

I don't know about the chlorate on paper with sulfuric acid. It's possible that the paper would act as the fuel. It may be better to mix the powder in question with sugar, and then add the sugar. That is known to promote combustion, and would work without a doubt. You'd hate to get a false negative here.

 

Chlorate does not, or at least should not, go off on it's own from impact from a hammer. Again, if it does, you have something wrong with your chemicals.

 

If you're able to, can you tell us where you obtained it? It may help to know if the seller is reputable, or if there is any likelihood of a fake.

[Ralph]

ok

 

KClO₃ and KClO₄ will not burn on their own NH₃ClO₄ will

 

i agree

 

chlorate and paper with sulfuric acid will give some very sharp snaps i have tried it (after hearing from someone one else)

 

and again chlorate with sufficient shock will go off on its own it will decompose into the chloride (depending on which chlorate your talking about) and oxygen gas there are many people that have done this before did you try this before saying it because it does happen with maleficent shock i know of many people i have done this and was puzzled my self (i think kcnkickthecat had a video on this)

 

just though it would be a good idea to clear up some misconceptions caused by the assumptions of some

[Mumbles]

The post was VERY clearly about potassium perchlorate and potassium chlorate. Ammonium perchlorate, nor another other chlorate species, have nothing to do with this, at all. In any case, even ammonium perchlorate cannot self-sustain combustion. Just to ensure that you were in fact a moron, I went and tried it. There is some sizzling and popping as it decomposed, only when the flame was present. Very obvious NH4Cl and O2 production due to the white fumes and acrid odor, and rust formed on the surface of the iron plate. Maybe the fact that you apparently have NH3ClO4 has something to do with it.

 

I never said that with sufficient shock potassium chlorate would not go off on it's own. Cheddites are one well known class of explosives, thought a significantly sensitized form. I said that it would not go off from a hammer blow, unless of course you're superman. I once again went to try this, again with the same results of you being a moron. I'm not saying that it cannot happen, just that I was not able to recreate this, nor has anyone else that I know to my knowledge. If you can do this, you probably have shitty chlorate. I would find more reliable sources that kcnkickthecat in the future as well. His youtube account is suspended (big suprise there), so I can't even check on the existance of this supposed video.

 

I never denied the chlorate on paper. In fact, I said it was plausible. I just recommended mixing with sugar for a more reliable test.

[firetech]

This is a bit off topic, but wasn't the Pepcon disaster related to the fact that at higher temperature NH4ClO4 decomposes to the point where it becomes its own fuel? Which eventually lead to the explosions? Someone please clear this up.

 

For those of you that don't know, Pepcon was a manufacturing plant for ammonium perchlorate.

[Ralph]

to set of my chlorate and commercial chlorate for that matter does not require super human strength in fast by shimazu on page 319 table 29 we see that at 64cm on a 2kg hammer dropping rig it will go off with the hammer drop from a height of 0.63m using primary school physics we calculate that the drop time is 0.35seconds and therefore the final velocity is just 3.5m/s (12.6km/h or about 7.8mp/h) which is well with in human capacities. that speed if very achievable for most human beings now you can try and discredit me as much as you want but i don't think people will agree with you when you question an experiment done repeatedly using a hammer drooping machine

 

yes firetech pepcon ocured when at first a very small amount of ammonium perchlorate caught fire this than self sustained a continuous burn eventually causing the sufficient activation energy to detonate this may not have just been heat but possibly shock in my testing i have discovered the sensitivity of a compound is highly dependant on the temperature for example copper baced thermite made with very coarse aluminium is very difficult to set off with schock but when heated till it is glowing red hot a drop of around 30cm is enough to make it go off as it hits the ground and just warming means it can be set of much more easily with a hammer so the detonations at pepcon may have been a hot barrel of ap falling and hitting the ground causing the other stuff around it also to go off

 

 

 

 

p.s. hmm if im a moron and my info was baced on shimazu i think your calling him a moron try harder and your chlorate will go it does take quite a hit but eventually does report

Edited July 7, 2009 by Ralph

[FrankRizzo]

This is a bit off topic, but wasn't the Pepcon disaster related to the fact that at higher temperature NH4ClO4 decomposes to the point where it becomes its own fuel? Which eventually lead to the explosions? Someone please clear this up.

 

For those of you that don't know, Pepcon was a manufacturing plant for ammonium perchlorate.

 

Yes, that's basically correct. It's not really "burning" in a normal fuel/oxygen type of reaction. Ammonium perchlorate decomposes exothermically, which means that the molecule comes apart into more basic molecules and during this process releases heat. If enough molecules are heated to decomposition, the additional heat given off by the exothermic decomposition in turn causes more molecules nearby to decompose, releasing yet more heat. It becomes a runaway reaction leading to *boom*.

Edited July 7, 2009 by FrankRizzo

[Mumbles]

Ammonium perchlorate cannot burn. Do you really think there was just a gigantic pile of AP sitting there on fire in the pepcon explosion? You can find it anywhere. There was a fire as a result of welding something, which was accelerated by the AP around. The AP was not on fire, just making things worse. The explosions were a result of natural gas, the AP decomposing inside of sealed vessels. There is the possibility of a runaway reaction too I suppose, which would make it explosive by just a build up of pressure in a confined space. As I said above, it readily decomposed with the flame with sizzles and snaps making oxygen gas and NH4Cl. The additional fiber and plastic drums, and any other fuel the extremely oxygen rich environment could find sustained the fire.

 

Once again, you're the one who pulled ammonium perchlorate out of nowhere.

 

I will in fact disagree with Dr. Shimizu until I, or someone else I know can replicate it. His book was written 28 years ago, so the tests are probably at least 30 years old. One never knows what kind of minor impurities may have been present. I found another reference to it being impact sensitive, but a No. 6 cap was still not enough to do the trick, so who knows.

 

Anyway, this is getting way off topic. We can agree to disagree I suppose.

[Ralph]

i guess next time i recrstelise some kclo3 (i have quite a bit of impure (as in with plenty of kcl) stuff) i will test it and video it

[Swede]

I'll pound on some recrystallized chlorate (steel on steel) and will report back. Edited July 7, 2009 by Swede

[Swede]

I got no pops, crackles, or any other sign of ignition when beating on a small sample of potassium chlorate on a steel block. That doesn't mean it's not a powerful oxidizer worthy of respect, just that in its native state, it's stable.

[Ralph]

when I did these tests it did take a hard hit (the kind that jars your hand) but it did go off one other factor may have been that the bace was a little rusty and iron oxide may have acted as a catalyst

[PoorBoy]

thanks guys and thanks mumbles for clarifying. Yea i was burning it by itself and it came from united nuclear. i am going to try the potassium perchlorate and sugar 1:1 by volume.

[PoorBoy]

thanks mumbles the sugar test told me what i needed to know it burned great lots of smoke. took a little more heat than i thought it would but it sustained reaction.