'Spontaneous Combustion'

[Mindphreak]

Has anyone here ever had a firework ever go off without any apparent reason? I know some compostionions are sensitive but, unless something like an acid contaminated the chemicals, it should not just go off, right?

[50AE]

From what I know, mixtures that have the potential to self ignite are :

 

Chlorate mixtures with sulfates, sulfur, sulfides

Chlorate mixtures with red phosphorus

Chlorate mixtures with ammonium compounds

 

Permanganate mixtures with... almost everything

 

Nitrate mixtures with fine magnesium, magnalium, aluminium and other metals maybe (not sure) with the presence of moisture.

 

Non potassium dichromate coated magnesium powder with ammonium perchlorate

Magnesium with water

Non-linseed oil coated magnesium with other oxidizers.

[Miech]

Since sulfur can also act as oxidizer, add mixtures of sulfur and metals to the list. Especially sulfur with magnesium is prone to spontaneous ignition, mixtures with magnalium and aluminium will usually just generate smell. The danger substantially increases if temperatures rises above 80 degrees Celsius, as this is the temperature sulfur changes crystal structure.

 

With sulfur/aluminium and sulfur/magnalium mixtures a pinch of boric acid will prevent the reaction. Magnesium/sulfur mixtures should be avoided, especially with uncoated magnesium. Magnesium should be avoided anyway in my opinion.

 

I know a single case where a fountain spontaneously ignited in someones workshop. This was a black powder based fountain with a chlorate dipped piece of paper as fuse, where the reaction was probably initiated by direct sunlight shining at it. This accident could obviously have been avoided by using the knowledge of the post above this one.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Miech

[Mindphreak]

Ok sounds good, just want to make sure nothings going to go off behind my back.

50AE, as far as chlorates go what level of contamination of sulfur makes it dangerous. Can I clean ball mill containers that once held black powder and use them to grind chlorates for future compositions, or would I be better off using seperate containers. This goes for milling media as well.

[Mumbles]

Get separate media and jars. Impacts like that make it extremely dangerous. Sulfur and chlorates are sensitive together, but it's overexagerated with current chemical purity, low acidity sulfur specifically. I won't say safe, but given good purity chemicals, they can be used in practical applications together.

 

Miech, sulfur cannot react unfavorably with metals alone in the way you describe under normal conditions to my knowledge. I've never seen any reference or precedent of this. The reaction that generates H2S is an extension of the nitrate/Al reaction. Magnalium may also require dichromate to properly protect it instead of boric acid. Boric acid only works with aluminum. The aluminum reaction is base driven, while the magnesium (and possibly MgAl) reaction is electrolyte driven.

[50AE]

Ok sounds good, just want to make sure nothings going to go off behind my back.

50AE, as far as chlorates go what level of contamination of sulfur makes it dangerous. Can I clean ball mill containers that once held black powder and use them to grind chlorates for future compositions, or would I be better off using seperate containers. This goes for milling media as well.

 

I wouldn't count on washing the jar and media. It's better to leave your black powder jar doing his job and buy a new one for chlorate only.

[Ventsi]

Hmm i wonder ,The other day I made a cake piece using a 3/8" tube 5 BP primed green falling leaves pieces and granulated H3 for lift .The device was shot within twenty minutes ,I would like to use H3 since I got great results with only 0.4g of it and I dont want to waste my *time consuming BP*.

 

 

Question is can I make this safe and storable so I can make a cake for the 4^th and safely store it? I know I can put a barrier of saran wrap between the stars and the H3 but what about the fuse sulfur + chlorate = a cake going off in storage, and I aint got no magasine!

[Seymour]

Unless your sulfur is high in acid or your chlorate is of appalling quality, it should be fine.

However, even if it is just for peace of mind, you might want to use a barrier (I'd do paper, but I will grudgingly accept that plastic works fine) between H3 and prime.

[sparksnsky]

What about glitters compositions that contain aluminum but not boric acid, such like many glitters. Is it safe to store?

[Mindphreak]

Sounds good, I havn't mixed jars yet good thing I posted this. However, like Ventsi's question, would it be ok to have a fuse go into a flash compostitions containing chlorates due to the sulfer in the fuse?

Thanks for the help

[Miech]

Regular visco doesn't contain sulfur as far as I know. If it does however, I would not expect it to be a problem. There is little stress and friction at the end of a piece of fuse, so not that much stimuli to get it going spontaneously.

[drtoivowillmann]

To 50 AE:

 

Dear Friend:

 

The following are very sensitive but do not undergo spontaneous ignition;

-red phosphorus and chlorates

- sulphides and chlorates.

 

Unsoluble sulphates (barium-, strontium-, even calcium-) and chlorates do not undergo spontaneous ignition.

 

You should include: chlorates + zinc, magnesium, aluminium, magnalium and other metals.

 

You should include: chlorates + copper-I-compounds, + oxalic acid (Na-oxalate + Boric Acid = Borax + Oxalic Acid).

 

You will not believe, but you should include: metallic copper + sulphur (I had an accident because of it).

 

You must include: chlorates + any acid

 

Very fresh Black Aluminium (some people make it themselves, if they work in absence of fresh air (oxigen) it may

result pyrophoric. A Brazilian guy, who did so died burnt.)

 

Greetings from Brazil:

 

Toivo

[50AE]

To 50 AE:

 

Dear Friend:

 

The following are very sensitive but do not undergo spontaneous ignition;

-red phosphorus and chlorates

- sulphides and chlorates.

 

Unsoluble sulphates (barium-, strontium-, even calcium-) and chlorates do not undergo spontaneous ignition.

 

You should include: chlorates + zinc, magnesium, aluminium, magnalium and other metals.

 

You should include: chlorates + copper-I-compounds, + oxalic acid (Na-oxalate + Boric Acid = Borax + Oxalic Acid).

 

You will not believe, but you should include: metallic copper + sulphur (I had an accident because of it).

 

You must include: chlorates + any acid

 

Very fresh Black Aluminium (some people make it themselves, if they work in absence of fresh air (oxigen) it may

result pyrophoric. A Brazilian guy, who did so died burnt.)

 

Greetings from Brazil:

 

Toivo

 

True. I maybe ment spontaneous combustion from a slight or moderate friction or shock

 

Chlorate and red phosphorus, it's debatable. You have to use a very pure rP, to be sure.

-Sulphides and chlorates - as far as I know no problem with Sb2S3, it's a high friction sensitive mixture though.

 

Chlorates and sulphates - Agree as well. I was ignorant when posting this previous post. Sr, Ba and Ca SO4 aren't a problem, but chlorate + CuSO4 is truly a deathmix. Of course, CuSO4 is soluble.

 

Chlorates + metal powders should be avoided, I haven't had a spontaneous ignitition from testing batches though.

 

Chlorates + acid - of course. I wonder if lactose blues are a big problem.

[dagabu]

I rolled a sizable batch of D1 3/8" stars last summer using good Pot Perc KNO3 and Andjis 350 mesh dark Al. It started to smell and heat up in the baggies (packaged this way to transport them to the drying shed a 1/4 mile away) so I set them aside out in the open where they wouldn't hurt anyone if they started up.

 

Eventually, I grabbed leather gloves and opened (they fell out actually) the bags and spread the stars out on the side walk. The last bag (about 200 grams) contained the largest stars and when I picket the bag up, the bottom was melted and the just stayed where they were and got hotter and hotter.

 

About four hours into it, the pile of 3/8" stars finally went up. They were spread out pretty well in the grass but were touching and cross ignited. It took several seconds to consume the whole batch, no damage was done but a 2 sq foot patch of grass was burned.

 

All of the other stars that were spread out on concrete were cool to the touch after 5 hours and were bagged up and stored with no further issues. The smell lasted as long as they were wet, when dry, they no longer have any odor.

 

I still have 300 grams of D1 cores from this batch and they work like they should with no problems.

 

When I use any Al and water in stars I use boric acid and I dry them on screens outside where they don't touch each other for 5 hours and then into the cabinet they go.

Edited January 11, 2010 by dagabu

[50AE]

D1 glitter with potassium perchlorate ?

 

This means your Al is very active. I've never used dark Al in my life. My stars containing -325 spherical Al have never heated up, but smelled a little. These containing bright Al have never smelled, maybe because of the stearin coating. Now I add boric acid, because I already have.

[dagabu]

D1 glitter with potassium perchlorate ?

 

This means your Al is very active. I've never used dark Al in my life. My stars containing -325 spherical Al have never heated up, but smelled a little. These containing bright Al have never smelled, maybe because of the stearin coating. Now I add boric acid, because I already have.

 

Nope, standard KNO3 D1 comp.

[50AE]

I rolled a sizable batch of D1 3/8" stars last summer using good Pot Perc and Andjis 350 mesh dark Al.

 

Because you wrote this in your post

[dagabu]

Because you wrote this in your post

 

GOOD GOD, I DID!! LOL

 

I had my mind on the Christmas tree igniters post.

[Mumbles]

The only problems I've ever had were with regards to glitters containing sodium bicarbonate or oxalate and flake aluminums, and like Dapaki the composition was contained. Never again.

 

I would still be somewhat hesitant to mix chlorate and calcium sulfate. I was reading on PML about an accident in Britain many years ago where a chlorate mix spontaneously ignited/exploded from using hard water to wet a composition. This could have been due to soluble calcium species too.

 

I do have one issue with your list though Dr. Toivo

 

I have a hard time believing that boric acid can protonate oxalate to oxalic acid. The pKa of oxalic acid is far too low for boric acid to approach this, unless there is some other driving force. I've actually done an analogous experiment in the past. Oxalic acid is considerably stronger than carbonic acid for instance. Boric acid will not protonate sodium bicarbonate to carbonic acid. When mixed, there was no bubbling or foaming noticeable. Bicarbonate is a stronger base too

[Mumbles]

The most confusing part about Dapaki's post is there actually is a perchlorate glitter called D1.

[Miech]

Isn't that A1 glitter? They were designed by the same guy, so I'd expect a little consistency in the naming of his compositions. A1 is a poor glitter in my experience though, it was more like a yellow streamer.

[Mumbles]

Ah yes you're right. He Larry Homan published 3. A1, B5, and D7. I got the numbers and letters mixed up. Thats what I get for not checking first. I never got these stars to light.

[Skycastlefish]

The most confusing part about Dapaki's post is there actually is a perchlorate glitter called D1.

I think the most confusing part is that we're calling Dagabu by his other name - Dapaki

If you read an interesting sounding 6 letter word that starts with a D (like Dagaki) just assume its refering to him. He also goes by "The timed report guy" and "The leader of the dark side."

[dagabu]

Hey!!!!

 

I am not the leader, Laduke is the man behind the curtain.

 

Gawwd, that is too bad that I am known as the timed report guy, I was hoping for, "The best looking bald guy I have ever seen!" guy.

 

Mum, is that D1 glitter from the PF archives? Both that I have seen are KNO3 based.

 

dapakidagabu, try that one on for size!!

Edited August 25, 2010 by dagabu

[Skycastlefish]

 

Gawwd, that is too bad that I am known as the timed report guy, I was hoping for, "The best looking bald guy I have ever seen!" guy.

 

 

Think of it from my perspective: If someone says "I know this guy who kicks butt at timed reports" I'd probably say something like "Awesome, can I meet him?" Now imagine if someone said "I know this guy, he's the best looking bald guy you've ever seen." Eh, I just wouldn't care.