My Beginning in Whistle Rocketry

[Mumbles]

Well, the first question is obviously will the rockets work with known strong tubes? I'd imagine it's the handrolled tube. I'm not meaning to call into question your skill of handrolling, but it's hard to compete with machine rolled tubes. A slightly cooler whistle might also be beneficial.

 

The paper is a little thicker than traditional. This sometimes produces a small lip or ridge inside the tube. You can use some fine grit sand paper to feather the edge before rolling to make a smooth interior. You also don't mention how much or what kind of glue you are using. Getting the paper too wet can cause small air pockets and wrinkling, but not getting enough glue is just as bad.

 

You might try soaking the tubes in sodium silicate, or wood hardener to help strengthen the tubes.

[tentacles]

You hardly need the heavy wall NEPT tubes for whistles. In fact, I don't think I heard of anyone using them at Mason City - everyone is still using the standard wall NEPT, or just random tubes they have. It would be interesting to see if/how much farther you can push them but exactly how high do you need to push a 3 or 4" shell? Might be interesting to put one of those long multibreak headers on, though, but they don't need to be shot into orbit.

 

Just cause a tube is thicker doesn't mean you can use the strength - the inside turns of paper won't stretch as much as the outside, so you can get a tearing effect of the wall at a weak spot. Even tubes as hard and strong as NEPT will stretch some.

[Zmuro]

I used wood glue diluted with water. I rolled one tube using only sodium silicate and it's harder than wood glue tube. I could use 110g kraft paper sheet to get 120cm long strips of paper, but I don't think that would be good because I would have to use several strips to achieve 4-5mm wall. I used 76/23/1 + 2 mineral oil whistle and my core dimensions are: 80mm long, 15mm wide tapering to 6,5mm. I should test how much force is needed to rapture the tube pressing cat sand plug into it.

[dagabu]

I used wood glue diluted with water. I rolled one tube using only sodium silicate and it's harder than wood glue tube. I could use 110g kraft paper sheet to get 120cm long strips of paper, but I don't think that would be good because I would have to use several strips to achieve 4-5mm wall. I used 76/23/1 + 2 mineral oil whistle and my core dimensions are: 80mm long, 15mm wide tapering to 6,5mm. I should test how much force is needed to rapture the tube pressing cat sand plug into it.

 

New England Paper Tube Company uses strips of paper as well, not one sheet. You will have better luck keeping the paper straight when rolling too. Where did you get your sodium silicate from? Is it 40%?

 

D

Edited October 25, 2009 by dagabu

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

I've rolled 4mm thick wall tubes with 225grams kraft (1 meter long strip and with wood glue), the 3lb whistles didn't cato with hot whistle as the fuel. My spindle is a little shorter, about 75mm.

[Zmuro]

I used sodium silicate from local hardware store so I don't know how pure is it. I will try to find some thicker craft paper and role more tubes, the last option for me is to order the tubes from hobbyhorse

[psyco_1322]

Just order some tubes from Hobbyhorse. You'll save yourself a lot of troubles. Plus you don't have to worry about varying tube thickness, and its one more variable to eliminate when tuning your engines.

 

Someone was asking for 1/4" whistle spindle dimensions?

 

Try a 1/8" spindle about 3/4"-1" long, if that holds, go longer till it blows and back off an 1/8". Give the spindle a nice sharp taper. You should still only need one rammer for the spindle.

Edited November 3, 2009 by psyco_1322

[firetech]

Yup that was me. That didn't work hand-pressed, but I kinda assumed that. I'll have to try it pressed.

[Zmuro]

Just order some tubes from Hobbyhorse. You'll save yourself a lot of troubles. Plus you don't have to worry about varying tube thickness, and its one more variable to eliminate when tuning your engines.

 

I wanned to, but the postage to my country is just to pricey. Here are the prices from an email reply:

Here is the revised shipping quotes from FedEx.

 

1 Bundle - $80.45

2 Bundles - $140.20

3 Bundles - $180.09

 

Thanks, Jim Biersach

International Sales Manager

[TheSidewinder]

Ouch. That's just the SHIPPING cost??

 

How many tubes are in the "bundle" he mentioned, and what length are they?

[Mumbles]

A bundle is 10 tubes, roughly 2-3 feet long depending on the size. I think the issue comes with the length. It's not of much help, but if you could convince someone to precut the tubes for you, you could fit roughly 2 bundles in a USPS flat rate box, but that would still run $53 or so for shipping. That put it slightly over a dollar a tube.

 

I know I've seen a cheaper shipping service somewhere.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Zmuro our shipping costs is 32,- euro, with a maximum of 7 sets (40 tubes/set)

1 set would be 11,- euro shipping costs.

 

Just to give you an idea

 

(edit, I'm talking about 19,7mm ID)

Edited November 5, 2009 by FREAKYDUTCHMEN

[Zmuro]

I successfully launched 3lb whistle using homemade paper tube and pusher tooling. It didn't have much delay because it was just a test rocket to see if the tubes are strong enough

[Stinger]

Very nice rocket Zmuro!

 

I just got my 1lb Pusher tooling today as well as this press from ebay:

 

http://cgi.ebay.de/Werkstattpresse-Hydraul...#ht_3859wt_1024

 

Tubes (PVC tubing, really sturdy with 1/8" wall) have been ordered and are about to arrive on the weekend.

I was about to order from hobby horse, but the shipping would have been something like 200 dollars, and thats definately too much!

 

A few pictures from my tooling I got today are right here...

[Mumbles]

Don't use PVC. Handroll them if you have to, but PVC is not suitable in anyway. I hate to be blunt, but you'd have to be a complete fucking moron to even try to use PVC with whistle. You're going to blow several of them up. There really isn't any way around that.

[Stinger]

In your opinion I might be a fucking moron, but I have been searching for good paper

tubes for almost 3-4 months, calculated shipping and time it would cost me to cut them and all the other stuff including ordering stuff

from a pyro-shop in the internet that may have fatal results, meaning the cops could chase my house.

Furthermore a good friend of mine uses PVC for his rockets and it works very well for him.

 

As you may know, where is a will, there is a way

 

 

 

 

I´ll keep you posted, pressing a few rockets in time and upload a few videos to maybe persuade you.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Stinger

[Mumbles]

As long as you're using PVC in whistle rockets, my opinion won't be changing.

[TheSidewinder]

Stinger, your logic is flawed, your lack of experience is showing, and your actions are just plain dangerous.

 

PVC casings have no place in whistle rockets whatsoever.

 

If you insist on continuing to think that this is a mathematical trade-off of cost versus benefit, you need to factor in the cost of a hospital visit, and then a lawsuit from the people who are injured WHEN your PVC-encased whistle rockets explode.

 

EDIT: I see you're in Germany. That makes it worse. Your government has even less tolerance of stupidity than mine.

[Stinger]

As usual, I light all my stuff in a secure area, so there wont be a risk of getting hit by PVC-shrapnels. furthermore

I am thinking about cardstock tubes now, but I already bought 50 feet of them, so what should I do?

If I had found a good supplier before ( what I just did today, dips**t!) I would have order paper tubes.

 

 

The pvc tubes was my last option in case I cant get any decent paper tubes, but it took place so I just bought them.

[Seymour]

I suggest you take it away as a last option.

 

Whistle fuel, if it is not happy can have a 'detonation tantrum'. A 'detonation tantrum' can throw shards of plastic a lot farther than the people in your video were from the rockets, with enough force for it to be potentially lethal.

 

If you are scared that buying paper tubes from the internet will get you arrested, you need a new hobby.

[Gunzway]

If you are scared that buying paper tubes from the internet will get you arrested, you need a new hobby.

 

This. I'm also sure if they come knocking on your door and find your workplace they'll be more understanding with paper tubes under your bench than a bunch of PVC.

[Stinger]

They dont give a s**t about those tubes being out of PVC or paper, even connecting a sparkler to a salute or similar firework can

get you into really really big trouble here

The best is to stay safe and avoid it to order from pyro shops, if you were here, you would definately do the same.

[mike_au]

They dont give a s**t about those tubes being out of PVC or paper, even connecting a sparkler to a salute or similar firework can

get you into really really big trouble here

The best is to stay safe and avoid it to order from pyro shops, if you were here, you would definately do the same.

 

 

Actually, Gunzway is in Australia like me. Around here you won't find too many laws about connecting sparklers to salutes because they don't need them. Possession of a salute, or any other type of firework is quite illegal.

 

I think you must have a different definition of "stay safe", to me using the right tool for the job so as to minimise the risk of being injured regardless of monetary cost is considered staying safe.

 

I can't speak for Gunz, but I personally have paid over $100 in shipping to bring in $50 worth of tubes from the USA and despite your claim, I think you will find that most people would actually do the same as me, not you.

 

Also, don't discount the value of proper safety precautions in bringing investigators around to your side. I'm not saying you won't still get in the shit, but if you can demonstrate that you are doing your best to stay safe and protect the safety of others despite working with hazardous substances they are far less likely to throw the book at you.

[Swede]

I have empathy for the Europeans trying to get tubes. Your 1/2 lb rocket is a lot less fun when you have $3+ of paper tube soaring skyward. I've tried making tubes, and it is definitely not easy, but doable. Living in the U.S., I eventually decided it was more trouble than it's worth, but on occasion, maybe rolling is the answer.

 

The idea would be to have a less labor intensive and more consistent technique. I've tried immersing tubes rolled dry in resin, then applying vacuum, and this showed real promise if the resin is thin enough, the paper pores are decently open, and the vacuum hard enough. If that doesn't work, then I think using multiple paper strips and glue rather than one giant, long strip is going to make a better tube. Once it starts telescoping, it's hard to correct it without making a fatally weak layer or two, so you end up wasting a bit cutting off the telescoped ends.

 

Dagabu, that tooling was my own concept for 4 oz rockets. I like smaller stuff, always have, and I wanted to play around with different spindle geometries. So now I have a "kit" with 3 or 4 spindles, a zillion rammers, and I break it out once in a while for a bit of fun, but my rocket skills are not high. I guess you could say I am "Sleeter" disciple - his was the first book I read on BP rockets, and while labor-intensive, I do like how well it compacts the grain. Sleeter uses a ketone to activate milled-in red gum. Once mixed, you have to work pretty fast, but there is zero dust, and the fuel compacts into a single, dense solid that dries very quickly. It's easy to tell when it's ready. When it no longer smells like ketone, it's done.

 

I use a mix of acetone and MEK to allow a bit more working time. You can use alcohol too, anything that activates the RG, but alcohol always has water in it, and drying takes a while.

 

It's sad but interesting, we've had a couple of pressed BP rocket accidents in the last few months, so I am going to work on better protective shielding for my own press.

[Zmuro]

I roll my 3lb tubes using water glass as a glue, but I have a big problem. I use two strips of craft paper 120cm long, so that the tube is not telescoping a lot. I'm using SS rod and wax paper so that glue isn't sticking to the rod. I roll the tube very tight so there aren't any weak spots or wrinkles, but when the tube is getting dry, there are many wrinkles and weak spots like split between the layers of paper and i don't know why this is happening as the tube is getting dry. Does any of you have problem like that of maybe I should change the glue or something? Maybe heat activated glue, but I don't know any.