Random Thread #1

[NightHawkInLight]

You're trying to make a fuel/air explosion, right? A cremora fireball in the sky? That implies it won't burn properly until it's dispersed into the air, so maybe it needs some form of delayed ignition, like a handful of charcoal stars.

That is correct. It is not necessary to have a separate ignition source. 50/50 naphthalene/charcoal is extremely flammable. A pile ignites instantly with a match. The fuel does ignite in both the shells in the video, there just isn't much of it there. Nobody really bothers building lampares as small as 3" just because the effect isn't noticeable enough. I did it mostly as a test to be sure the fuel would turn back to powder upon break and fully combust - Which it did. The real test comes with the 6"s.

[marks265]

Nope, it's polverone. Rough powder, granulated green meal for use as a flammable filler. The only real processing you use besides mixing and granulating is to screen it a couple of times first. I don't know if granulating milled powder with hot water would have any advantage as it is already quite well integrated as compared to green meal. I suppose it can't come out any worse than an unmilled powder.

 

 

Mr. Mumbles

 

I have made rough powder both ways mentioned and more. In my experiences the milled powder and the use of hot water do make a noticable difference from green meal. Not as in day vs night but still an improvement well worth noting. Just the use of hot water alone, in any case, I see an improvement.

 

Mark

[dagabu]

Mr. Mumbles

 

I have made rough powder both ways mentioned and more. In my experiences the milled powder and the use of hot water do make a noticable difference from green meal. Not as in day vs night but still an improvement well worth noting. Just the use of hot water alone, in any case, I see an improvement.

 

Mark

 

Mum, Mike has two recipes for pulverone and the second is for lift and break. It is considerably faster then filler pulverone and if it is ball milled first, will perform much like commercial BP. The big difference is the use of water that is kept at a rolling boil and used in that state to wet the comp.

[optimus]

Imagine a horsetail shell that broke with a fireball. Pretty cool thought.

 

YES PLEASE!

 

I've seen a few lampares in Malta - to be fair the effect could be missed by a non-pyro, especailly when they're not viewed up close - they can look a bit like a dirty salute or a blind shell. Absolutely fantastic concussion though, which will never show up on video

[Mumbles]

Mark, are you saying that milled powder when granulated with hot water is stronger than the same powder granulated with cool or room temperature water? That is really what I was asking. I would imagine that hot water would make a bigger difference for green meal vs milled powder, though it may offer a performance increase in both cases. I mill and granulate my burst, but use granulated green meal (polverone) for my filler. I've switched a few other variables, but my shells seem to be breaking better since I switched to hot granulated polverone.

 

Dave, where might I find the second polverone instructions? All the details I've seen on polverone by Mike always indicate the use of screened green meal. I included the most complete directions/details I've found from him. He usually gives the same basic instructions, with varying amounts of background and additional details.

 

My polverone is ordinarily NOT milled. It is intended mainly to act as a

combustible filler or an adjunct to commercial black powder or a flash bag,

that's OK.

 

I very much agree that "the incorporation of the dissolved KNO3 into the body of

the charcoal particles" is important, and my method of making polverone takes

advantage of the much greater solubility of saltpetre in hot water than in cold.

Here is what I do:

 

Mix:

 

18 lbs. saltpetre

4 lbs. air float charcoal

3 lbs. sulphur

1 lb. 12 oz. dextrine

 

Sieve the saltpetre, sulphur and dextrine separately through 40-mesh. Blend by

hand and sieve through 20-mesh onto the coal which has previously been weighed

out and placed in the receiver. When all is through, blend by hand and sieve 3x

through 20-mesh.

 

Now, set out two galvanized wash tubs and your granulating screen, which should

be 3X3 hardware cloth. This is somewhat hard to locate compared to 2X2 or 4X4,

but is worth the effort to find, because it produces a particle size range most

comparable to 2F black powder. Set out a large scoop, such as bakers use to

handle flour, and a wooden stick for stirring. Set out half-a-dozen 2X3 foot

screen-bottom drying trays lined with 30# kraft. Place 6 lbs. of water in a

covered kettle on a camp stove or hot plate, WELL AWAY from where you have your

mixed composition.

 

Put the composition into one of the wash tubs. When the water has come to a

rolling boil, pour all but a little bit of it onto the composition and stir with

a stick. The dissolution of saltpetre is profoundly endothermic and the damp

composition will soon be cool enough to work with the hands. Blend the water in

as thoroughly as you can with your hands.

 

Make some of it into a "black snowball" about big enough to hold in both hands.

Place the granulating screen over the second wash tub and rub this ball of

composition over the screen, pressing it down firmly as you rub, causing the

granules to fall into the wash tub. When done with the first ball, make another

and continue till all of it has been granulated into the tub. Now place the

granulating screen over the first, now empty, tub. Using the scoop, pick up and

put some of the previously granulated composition onto the screen and shake/rub

it through. Continue till it has all been granulated back into this tub. When

complete, re-granulate a third time into the tub just emptied.

 

The purpose of this repeated granulation is first, to distribute the water

evenly through the mix, and secondly, to aerate and cool the mix. You will note

each time you pass the granules through the screen, they become dryer on the

surface and less prone to stick together. This is partially the consequence of

drying, but also partially because as the temperature of the water falls, the

saltpetre goes out of solution.

 

Finally, granulate a fourth time onto the paper-lined trays. A batch this size

will fill five or six trays with a thin layer of polverone. Don't make it too

deep, as this will interfere with drying.

 

Let the trays stand in the sun and the breeze for half an hour to 40 min. You

can check drying by lifting up a corner of the kraft liner in a tray, and see if

the granules flow more-or-less freely or if they are prone to stick to the

liner. When they flow more or less freely, it's time to re-granulate one last

time onto fresh, dry, liners. If this is done right the liners onto which the

polverone was first granulated will hardly be soiled - just damp. They can be

saved, dried out, and turned over to use another time.

 

Let your polverone dry in a shady dry place, preferably inside a dehumidified

and heated/air conditioned building, for 2-3 weeks. When dry, sort by

granulation. I typically first pass mine through the 3X3 screen used to

granulate it to break up any clumps. Using the method described, you should not

have any hard clumps that are difficult to break up, as you will if you just

dampen and granulate right away onto screens. The polverone is then shaken on an

8X8 screen. What is retained on this screen is bagged (I use the anti-static

plastic bags in which commercial black powder originally came) and labelled

"coarse." This material will be approximately the same size range as 2FA and

should make up the bulk of the polverone. The material passing 8X8 is shaken on

window screen. What is retained on window screen is bagged and labelled

"middle." What passes window screen is bagged and labelled "fines." The middle

polverone is useful for smaller shells, filling around inserts, etc. Fines can

be used for priming, or when enough are accumulated, can be dampened and

re-granulated.

 

As for "green powder" - at black powder mills, the "green charge" is what the

mixture of saltpetre, charcoal, and sulphur is called before it is milled. It is

thus "green" in the sense that it is raw, unfinished, immature or unripe - the

reference is not to its color. This is not particularly a fireworks usage, and I

have never heard any professional fireworks man speak of polverone or home-made

meal as "green powder."

 

Polverone made with boiling water as above is faster than unmilled powder that

has just been damped with cold or tepid tap water and granulated. By the way, I

claim no originality for this method - it is how I was taught to make it, and

how the person who taught me learnt how to make it himself. I have used my

polverone to lift small (up to 3") shells and mines and it certainly works - you

just have to use more of it. It isn't the equivalent of a ball milled powder. I

imagine that if one were to use a better charcoal and ball mill the composition

before granulating it could be made much stronger.

 

Pressing is important to make powder of a density comparable to the commercial

product, but I think this has less to do with speed and power than many people

think. Powder density is an important issue especially with cartridge firearms,

because the volume of powder that can be loaded in a cartridge has its limits

and hence the denser the powder is, the greater the charge weight can be. This

isn't so important with fireworks, since we don't have to make the lift charge

of a shell fit in a fixed amount of space. In the nineteenth century, when the

variety of black powders available was much greater, denser powders were favored

for use in rifles while less dense ones were selected for shotguns - because

they burnt faster! The old Ideal handbooks from this period caution against

using black powders intended for shotgun use in rifle cartridges for this

reason. It seems to me that pyrotechnists making their own black powder have not

thought through the issue of powder density as well as they might.

 

- Mike

[dagabu]

Dave, where might I find the second polverone instructions? All the details I've seen on polverone by Mike always indicate the use of screened green meal. I included the most complete directions/details I've found from him. He usually gives the same basic instructions, with varying amounts of background and additional details.

 

 

 

I think it is the same formula but your posting has more text after the end posted on line. Mike told me that his formula with white pine perforem almost identical to Goex but falls behind Swiss.

 

Raw materials:

18 lbs. Potassium Nitrate

4 lbs. Air Float Charcoal

3 lbs. Sulfur

1 lb. 12 oz. Dextrin

 

Tools / Hardware:

1 - 20 mesh screen for prep

1 - 40 mesh screen for prep

6 - 2x3 drying screens

12 - 30# Kraft paper liners for screen

2 - galvanized wash tubs

1 - wooden stir stick

1 - 3x3 granulating screen

1 - 8x8 screen for classification

1 - window screen for classification

 

Sieve the saltpeter, sulfur and dextrin separately through 40-mesh. Blend by hand and sieve through 20-mesh onto the coal which has previously been weighed out and placed in the receiver. When all is through, blend by hand and sieve 3x through 20-mesh.

 

Now, set out two galvanized wash tubs and your granulating screen, which should be 3X3 hardware cloth. This is somewhat hard to locate compared to 2X2 or 4X4, but is worth the effort to find, because it produces a particle size range most comparable to 2F black powder. Set out a large scoop, such as bakers use to handle flour, and a wooden stick for stirring. Set out half-a-dozen 2X3 foot screen-bottom drying trays lined with 30# Kraft. Place 6 lbs. of water in a covered kettle on a camp stove or hot plate, WELL AWAY from where you have your mixed composition.

 

Put the composition into one of the wash tubs. When the water has come to a rolling boil, pour all but a little bit of it onto the composition and stir with a stick. The dissolution of saltpeter is profoundly endothermic and the damp composition will soon be cool enough to work with the hands. Blend the water in as thoroughly as you can with your hands.

 

Make some of it into a ''black snowball'' about big enough to hold in both hands. Place the granulating screen over the second wash tub and rub this ball of composition over the screen, pressing it down firmly as you rub, causing the granules to fall into the wash tub. When done with the first ball, make another and continue till all of it has been granulated into the tub. Now place the granulating screen over the first, now empty, tub. Using the scoop, pick up and put some of the previously granulated composition onto the screen and shake/rub it through. Continue till it has all been granulated back into this tub. When complete, re-granulate a third time into the tub just emptied.

 

The purpose of this repeated granulation is first, to distribute the water evenly through the mix, and secondly, to aerate and cool the mix. You will note each time you pass the granules through the screen, they become dryer on the surface and less prone to stick together. This is partially the consequence of drying, but also partially because as the temperature of the water falls, the saltpeter goes out of solution.

 

Finally, granulate a fourth time onto the paper-lined trays. A batch this size will fill five or six trays with a thin layer of polverone. Don't make it too deep, as this will interfere with drying.

 

Let the trays stand in the sun and the breeze for half an hour to 40 min. You can check drying by lifting up a corner of the Kraft liner in a tray, and see if the granules flow more-or-less freely or if they are prone to stick to the liner. When they flow more or less freely, it's time to re-granulate one last time onto fresh, dry, liners. If this is done right the liners onto which the polverone was first granulated will hardly be soiled - just damp. They can be saved, dried out, and turned over to use another time.

 

Let your polverone dry in a shady dry place, preferably inside a dehumidified and heated/air conditioned building, for 2-3 weeks. When dry, sort by granulation. I typically first pass mine through the 3X3 screen used to granulate it to break up any clumps. Using the method described, you should not have any hard clumps that are difficult to break up, as you will if you just dampen and granulate right away onto screens. The polverone is then shaken on an 8X8 screen. What is retained on this screen is bagged (I use the anti-static plastic bags in which commercial black powder originally came) and labeled ''coarse.'' This material will be approximately the same size range as 2FA and should make up the bulk of the polverone. The material passing 8X8 is shaken on window screen. What is retained on window screen is bagged and labeled ''middle.'' What passes window screen is bagged and labeled ''fines.'' The middle polverone is useful for smaller shells, filling around inserts, etc. Fines can be used for priming, or when enough are accumulated, can be dampened and re-granulated.

 

Polverone made with boiling water as above is faster than unmilled powder that has just been damped with cold or tepid tap water and granulated. By the way, I claim no originality for this method - it is how I was taught to make it, and how the person who taught me learned how to make it himself. I have used my polverone to lift small (up to 3'') shells and mines and it certainly works - you just have to use more of it. It isn't the equivalent of a ball milled powder. I imagine that if one were to use a better charcoal and ball mill the composition before granulating it could be made much stronger.

Edited September 7, 2010 by dagabu

[marks265]

Mark, are you saying that milled powder when granulated with hot water is stronger than the same powder granulated with cool or room temperature water? That is really what I was asking.

 

 

Yes, that's what I've been experiencing. I while back I was playing with the CIA method, which I really hate, and is how I found this to be. Even when I was making my black match this way and then using a vacuum device such as a "seal-a-meal" I noticed a difference. Ask the wife about a test burn on that some time----OK maybe don't ask her.

 

Mark

[50AE]

Monday I'll be passing my theory exam for driving licence. I'm exercising my theory these days.

 

The last time I drove the school car, I met a nice girl and I hope I see her again at the exam. She seems nice and very mature. By the way, the firedancing girl really disappointed me. She's like a kid. And it amazes me, because she's born 1984, I'm 91.

If you want, I will describe to you why I think so. But just to let you know, she didn't tell a "Thank you" how she is supposed to, for the stuff I did for her. She even doesn't think about the stuff I paid to make her stuff. It's never about the money, but the gesture. I would pay, but I wouldn't mind the money if she really thanks me.

 

 

To be honest, the only one I really like is 33 years old. We are best friends, I like every time I see her. She's so mature, intelligent, beautiful nice and such a good person. She's the one I can chat about many things. I can't really explain to you how her presence lifts my spirit.

We both know that if she was younger, wasn't married and didn't have a child, we would be already a couple. She even told me that, so I did.

 

Sometimes I'm so sad I can't find the right one. My generation is so kiddish, and I'm used to chat with guys older than me. Younger people just have little to say.

 

But I stay optimistic and I just live my life. One day I will find her.

 

Beg me pardon, had some beer this night and felt like I want to chat.

 

Hey, my troubles are fuckin nothing! Let's not forget Mumbles! Get well soon mate!

Edited September 15, 2010 by 50AE

[Cookieman]

Man, I thought for sure that fire dancing chick was a match made in heaven for you. I guess her fire wasn't bright enough for you.When you meet the right one you'll get butterflies in your stomach and you'll know.Good luck on your drivers exam.

[TheEskimo]

I have only one friend worth talking to. She's crazy beautiful, and I don't know if I would ever ask her out.

The other one I did seek was crazy beautiful as well, and one of my best mates. She turned kinda funky after I asked her out. Dammit, I'm not gonna be creepin' if you say no. Girls, I duon't get. And I still can't get her off my mind; everytime I see her I can't stop thinking. And even when I'm alone, I still see her. Gah... I dunno why she would say no, considering others have said that she seems to dig me. Ah well.

[50AE]

Never be shy to ask girls out, make compliments and so on. Think this way - do you have something to loose? Even if the girl reacts the worst way you can think of, just leave it behind.

[dagabu]

I am sooooo glad that I don't have to worry about stuff like this any more. At my age, the conversation is simple and to the point.

 

Have fun!

[50AE]

Let's say, you're a much experienced guy than we are

 

Ball milling my BaCO3 to make it into Ba(NO3)2. Granules are a huge PITA, the reaction is so slow.

[dagabu]

Let's say, you're a much experienced guy than we are

 

That may be but it involved more pain then anyone should go through. Just call me geezer!

[Algenco]

That may be but it involved more pain then anyone should go through. Just call me geezer!

 

 

ah, you aren't close to geezer yet

[TheEskimo]

Daga is just jealous that he can't go through angsty teenage shenanigans anymore.

And 50, the problem with her is that we had been best friends for about 2 years before. It isn't something I would like to lose. Ah well, enough about my failure of being romantic. Gotta wait a little longer before I can make a heart pattern shell

[50AE]

If she is truly a good friend to you, she shouldn't be offended if you tell you love her and ask her out.

[dagabu]

Daga is just jealous that he can't go through angsty teenage shenanigans anymore.

And 50, the problem with her is that we had been best friends for about 2 years before. It isn't something I would like to lose. Ah well, enough about my failure of being romantic. Gotta wait a little longer before I can make a heart pattern shell

 

Of no, I get to go through middle age shenanigans! Loosing hair from my head, hair growing from everywhere else, gaining weight though I run more now then 10 years ago.

 

Trust me whipper snapper, there isnt a good looking woman that walks by that doesn't still make us geezers get all tingly, the difference now is self control.

[Skycastlefish]

Of no, I get to go through middle age shenanigans! Loosing hair from my head, hair growing from everywhere else, gaining weight though I run more now then 10 years ago.

 

Trust me whipper snapper, there isnt a good looking woman that walks by that doesn't still make us geezers get all tingly, the difference now is self control.

 

 

Ah, Dagabu, you crack me up. If I ever have money to burn I'm going to pay good looking women to walk past your house all the time so you can feel "all tingly."

[dagabu]

Not to fear, I have tons of beautiful women in my life, at work, play time, I'm a gosh darn vibrator with all the estrogen I have to endure during the day!! Still, I'm the bald geezer that the 20 somethings come up to, smile and say, "You remind me of my dad!".

 

BUZZ KILL!!!

 

God made us creepy at 40 so that by the time we had the balls to walk up to any woman and say, hi ya beautiful, they would be repulsed and run away or us geezers would get all your babes and the human race would die out in 100 years.

[Mumbles]

I would drop the part about how much you love her when asking her for the first time. That would definitely transport you into the creeper category for me a little bit. Romantic love is different from platonic love.

[50AE]

Hey Mumbles, good to hear from you again!

 

Well, my point was to not be afraid of telling things. I would also keep my deeper feelings for later. But from my opinion it's quite apropriate to tell a girl you like her though. It's something I do and I don't have any troubles.

[dagabu]

Here in the USA, asking a woman out for coffee is the easiest way to gauge interest. I made the mistake of asking a colleague at work if she would like to get a cup of coffee, she said yes and had this idea that I was going to step out on my wife and start something with her.

 

It was a work issue and I wanted her opinion, nothing more but when she just nervously picked at her napkin (looked like we had snow on the table) I had to ask her what was going on and then she told me what she was thinking. I belly laughed and of course snuffed out any idea of such nonsense but was feeling pretty good about myself when she told me that she was nervous about hooking up with me since I was married.

 

Apparently she was keen to the idea since she still teases me about it but coffee seems to be a powerful aphrodisiac.

[50AE]

Preparing for the NYE! I have some work to do though. Have to make colored stars and colored shells with them, and the wireless firing system. Almost done on the cylinders though, I have to build more two double break and three single break.

Most of the cylinders are made with inserts - serpents, hummers, butterflies, turbillions and scatter stars.

 

The small 2" shells and mines are not a part of the NYE project. I'm still wondering if I should fire them then though. They are 2" shells with H3 burst and stars and classic piston mines.

 

http://store.picbg.net/thumb/B7/BE/1ed892c58505b7be.jpg

 

http://store.picbg.net/thumb/BB/DA/68b56e5f0443bbda.jpg

[NightHawkInLight]

I was just doing a little research into the potential health risks of sassafras, as I've been considering making up a fall rootbeer or sassafras tea. I did so a few years back on my own, then came to find out sassafras was banned as a food additive due to carcinogenic properties of the oils in test animals - there's debate as to whether or not it would do the same in humans. Anyway, I'm still looking into that to see if one of my favorite beverages really is gonna kill me.

 

Something interesting I discovered: According to wikipedia the carcinogenic oil contained in high percentages in the root is a list I chemical due to its use in the manufacture of ecstasy. Maybe that's why the tea is so good. Go figure this oil is also in black pepper, nutmeg, and cinnamon, a few of the other things I enjoy.

 

I think we've all had a girlfriend once upon a time who would insist we throw out the better half of the kitchen after reading a post like this...