SpikedCola Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 We were at the OSC today with my school, and a 'scientist' did a demonstration which included lighting a piece of what looked to be paper on fire, throwing it into the air, and having it burn completely, with no trace of it. He described it as being 'complete combustion' (obviously) and said that it was made of Sodium, Oxygen, and Chlorine, but I never got a chance to ask the chemical formula of it. Has anyone heard of this, or knows the formal name or chemical formula for it? Thanks!
Douchermann Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 Maybe it was just normal paper, soaked in sodium chlorate or perchlorate.
teknix Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 Well there is always flash paper, which is just nitrated paper (nitrocellulose). But since he said there was sodium and chlorine and oxygen in it then that means he just soaked the paper in a sodium chlorate solution and then let it dry.
iv81 Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 Most of the Sodium Chlorate produced in the world is used for paper pulp bleaching. So I find it odd that it was used to make the paper dissapear.
teknix Posted May 3, 2006 Posted May 3, 2006 Well the sodium chlorate is used to produce chlorine dioxide on site as the bleaching agent for paper manufacture. The chlorate is a strong oxidizer and the paper acts a fuel just as charcoal would and if you soak the chlorate in the paper it becomes a flammable fuel/oxidizer mix just like any other pyrotechnic composition. Poof burns like crazy. This stuff might be called "touch-paper" I'm not sure if this name only applies to potassium nitrate in paper or if chlorate can be used as well.
SpikedCola Posted May 3, 2006 Author Posted May 3, 2006 Alright, so Ill try saturating different kinds of paper with Sodium Chlorate to see how well they do. One thing though; where do I get sodium chlorate? Can it be taken from some household material, or do you have to buy it and have it shipped in? If so, where is a good place in Canada to get it, and one that takes paypal? Thanks in advance.
Mumbles Posted May 4, 2006 Posted May 4, 2006 It used to be sold as a herbicide. That may only be in england and France, and other european countries. I don't know of any places off hand to get sodium chlorate, and especeially none that will ship to canada and accept paypal. One way is to boil bleach. Boil to say 1/4 the volume, and cool it as low as you can without freezing it. Filter off the crystals, I don't know the solubilities off hand, so I can't give an exact proceedure. Needless to say, you shouldn't do this on mom's stove, much less indoors.
[w00t] Posted May 4, 2006 Posted May 4, 2006 Try electrolysis of Sodium chloride conc. solution, to get sodium chlorate
SpikedCola Posted May 5, 2006 Author Posted May 5, 2006 ,May 4 2006, 11:08 AM] Try electrolysis of Sodium chloride conc. solution, to get sodium chlorate Ive never done this, other than with water and test tubes over + and - electrodes. Same or different procedure? If so, what should I do? Ahah, sorry about being so needy, but chem is fun, and its best for me to be told what to do rather than try something and have it blow up in my face
FrKoNaLeaSh1010 Posted May 5, 2006 Posted May 5, 2006 No, its best for you to search it and read up about it so it doesn't blow up in your face....this shows that you give a fuck and teaches you discipline....wax on....wax off...
SpikedCola Posted May 5, 2006 Author Posted May 5, 2006 Ok I spent about half an hour reading about electrolysis, and since it seems like it would take a lot of time, which I dont have right now (essays due at school next week), Im going to get my cousin to pick some up from McMaster's lab. Problem solved So then just mix the crystals with water and dip the paper in it? Or is there a specific ratio it should be mixed in?
AVR Posted May 5, 2006 Posted May 5, 2006 Check out otc products first. In European countries it's often called Chlorinex, Klorex, Natrex. As mumbles said, it's sold as a herbicide. Check the label for other ingredients. Klorex got some sodium chloride in it.
teknix Posted May 5, 2006 Posted May 5, 2006 Just so you know potassium chlorate will work as well. You don't need specifically sodium chlorate. Also Perchlorates would work too.
Mumbles Posted May 5, 2006 Posted May 5, 2006 Unfortunatly perchlorates take longer to prepare. Also, the postassium salts of the respective anions are not as soluble.
SpikedCola Posted May 6, 2006 Author Posted May 6, 2006 Should have it by next weekend, so Im going to try electrolysis anyways, just for the hell of it. Ive pretty much got it figured out, but Im still curious as to the equation of whats going on. While in class I figured it was something like: (electrolysis) 2H2O --> 2H2 + O2then at the same time,:2NaCl + 3O2 --> 2NaClO3and left with H2 bubbling away That about right?
al93535 Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 I have rather detailed files on preparing chlorates and perchlorates. I copied this off of the web so it would not be lost. I forgot where I got it from, otherwise I would give due credit. If anyone knows, please post. Anyways, here it is: http://rapidshare.de/files/7167752/perchlorate.ZIP.html
BigBang Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 I believe you found it here. http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/chlorate_EN.html
al93535 Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 Thats it! Glad to see it is still on-line, I have not visited that site in a while. It has excellent information. All credit then goes to: Wouter Visser
Douchermann Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 The key with making chlorates is temperature. I don't know the exact numbers, I'm sure it says in that guide. Above a certain temp, the chlorate is formed. Below it, the hypochlorite is formed. Touch paper is generally refered to as potassium nitrate soaked in tissue paper.
[w00t] Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 The key with making chlorates is temperature. I don't know the exact numbers, I'm sure it says in that guide. Above a certain temp, the chlorate is formed. Below it, the hypochlorite is formed. Touch paper is generally refered to as potassium nitrate soaked in tissue paper. Umm doesn't matter really, when you boil the solution, if supposibly it's hypochlorite then it will turn to chlorate.
SpikedCola Posted May 6, 2006 Author Posted May 6, 2006 Touch paper is generally refered to as potassium nitrate soaked in tissue paper.Potassium Nitrate you say? Hmm that seems like it would be a lot easier to get than Sodium Chlorate. Ill have to check the fertalizer over at the farm and hope they havent started coating the prills yet. EDIT: Turns out we have some potassium nitrate fertalizer for trickle irrigation, in powder form, but its only about 13%. How would you separate it from whatever the hell else is in it? Add to water + boil?
iv81 Posted May 7, 2006 Posted May 7, 2006 I've tried disolvng KClO4 in water and later absobing it in paper towel and let it dry, it burned with a speed depending on concentration of KClO4 on each section but not nearly as fast as poof, it however made nice glittery sparkles.
SpikedCola Posted May 7, 2006 Author Posted May 7, 2006 Well I read that if you make a saturated solution of kno3 fertilizer and then cool it, the kno3 will form a precipitate that can be filtered out. Im gonna try it tomorrow.
Douchermann Posted May 7, 2006 Posted May 7, 2006 Pure potassium nitrate is 13.85% nitrogen. Unless they mixed another nitrogen based fertilizer in there up to 13%, then its pure potassium nitrate.
SpikedCola Posted May 7, 2006 Author Posted May 7, 2006 Bah, damn computer (power supply blew up and took out my mobo and video card) Anyways I got a better look at the fertalizer and its a 12-2-14 blend. Should work? Also, theres Copper Sulfate, Copper Hydroxide, and Formaldihyde over there. Any fun things you can do with them?
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