ID yet another mystery chem

[Swede]

I unpacked what I thought to be another score off eBay... it was a huge box full of teflon, PFA, PFE, etc bottles. These suckers are EXPENSIVE new. I knew these were not new, but figured I could clean them up. Thus began my afternoon in hell.

 

I was very excited about these solid teflon reagent bottles. There were about 12, neat little guys, machined from solid PTFE bar stock. But they contained at one time some REALLY funky and exotic chemical:

 

http://www.5bears.com/perc/fep02.jpg

 

http://www.5bears.com/perc/fep03.jpg

 

It had stained the bottles a tan color, strongly. There was some residue in a few of the bottles. I was hoping one bottle would be full of platinum chloride or somesuch; no luck. I thought iodine, but the smell was not there. What residue existed was tiny transparent crystals.

 

PTFE is inert. Short of liquid fluorine or a nuclear furnace, you can do what you want to clean them. Just keep the temp below 400 or so. I whipped up some pirahna fluid and dumped some of them in:

 

http://www.5bears.com/perc/fep08.jpg

 

I let it cook for 2 hours. It bubbled furiously the whole time, and the temp probably got to about 150 C. A bit scary. The result, a clean beaker, but only a marginally cleaner PTFE bottle:

 

http://www.5bears.com/perc/fep09.jpg

 

What gives? I'd of thought this would clean the PTFE like no tomorrow. I then tried nitric, HCl, soap and water, alcohol. Nothing. The bottles are useable, but it bugs me. I wanted them clean.

 

Fortunately, the box was full of other quality reagent bottles, like these:

 

http://www.5bears.com/perc/fep05.jpg

 

 

The big question: what could have possibly done that staining to solid, virgin PTFE? What exotic chem once graced those bottles? Any guesses? It HAS to be a chem that REQUIRES PTFE, or they'd have used something cheaper. Probably NOT an acid like nitric, as the bottles are too small. Plutonium? Am I going to die a slow, agonizing death now?

[tentacles]

A biological stain maybe? I have no idea; more than likely it hasn't stained the PTFE itself but is in microscopic crevices.. Have you tried other acids? If it's a noble metal salt, you might need to use something like hot/boiling aqua regia to dissolve the residue.

[Richtee]

Eww NASTY looking... Hmm since they are machined, and you are a machinist extordinare- can ya "ream" them out?

[Swede]

I'm thinking it was a biological lab. Those guys use a lot of FEP and PFA bottles because normal PE taints their super, super pure samples. But whatever was in the teflon bottles, it REQUIRED their use, meaning glass was OUT. That's why this stuff, even in its micro-quantities, scared me a bit. Whatever it was, it fumed powerfully, because the exterior PTFE threads were stained probably the worst of all.

 

Of all the acids, HCl seemed to dissolve the remaining material, but did the least for bleaching the PTFE. While the piranha fluid was bubbling away, I tried maybe 10ml conc. nitric on one of them, with no luck; thought "what the heck" and added the 10ml nitric to the 2 liters of piranha fluid. Over the next 2 minutes, the bubbling increased, and I could tell the piranha fluid was going to climb out of the container. I crashed it with a garden hose, made a real mess, and that was the end of it.

 

This deal turned out to be not such a good one after all.

 

Richtee, I'm going to try chucking the bottles and cleaning the threads with a 60 degree triangular needle file, but the insides have a profile that is not straight; there is a bottleneck section. A CNC lathe made these originally, and I can't do much with the insides.

 

Hmm, just had a thought. I don't really need more storage bottles. I could part off the neck portion of the PTFE bottle, and bore out the walls and bottom, and make myself a number of PTFE beakers. The lids would be scrap, which is a shame, but as they are now, I can't (and won't) do much with them to store chems. I don't have anything that requires PTFE anyhow.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Swede

[NightHawkInLight]

I'm thinking it was a biological lab. Those guys use a lot of FEP and PFA bottles because normal PE taints their super,

Hmm, just had a thought. I don't really need more storage bottles. I could part off the neck portion of the PTFE bottle, and bore out the walls and bottom, and make myself a number of PTFE beakers. The lids would be scrap, which is a shame, but as they are now, I can't (and won't) do much with them to store chems. I don't have anything that requires PTFE anyhow.

I was wondering what you might have been wanting them for...

Yeah unfortunately that's probably what I'd do as well. Whatever you do someday need PTFE to safely contain, you certainly don't want a mystery chemical contaminating/reacting with. So you wouldn't have the bottles anymore, oh well. You now have a sweet set of super beakers. Hopefully you don't then need long term storage though...

[Rogue Chemist]

Try thiosulfate, or perhaps some dilute sodium hydroxide.

Looks a lot like bromine to me.

[Mumbles]

If Caro's acid/pirahna fluid failed, I doubt if straight H2O2 would work.

 

The thing that would scare me about bleaches is that it could remove the color without removing the chemical contaminate.

 

I do like the idea of NaOH though. Dilute or concentrated will work. Very concentrated NaOH will remove just about everything known to man. Dilute would be a better first choice though. We use base and acid baths to clean a lot of our glassware in the lab.

[WarezWally]

Have you asked the seller?

 

Is this the listing?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Teflon-Bottle-Collecti...%3A1|240%3A1318

Edited December 21, 2008 by WarezWally

[TheSidewinder]

This is strictly a guess, but could that be some sort of organic (or non-organic?) dye that's staining the bottles? Note that I have no idea what the above "cleaners" would do to dyes.....

[Swede]

Have you asked the seller?

 

Is this the listing?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Teflon-Bottle-Collecti...%3A1|240%3A1318

 

Yep, that's it. How can I resist for $10? The shipping was a bit harsh. The smaller FEP/PFA bottles are excellent for concentrated acids, especially nitric, but mainly I've got a thing for teflon labware. If you search eBay for PTFE it's amazing what you'll find, and this stuff is just phenomenally expensive new. A while back I picked up several 2 liter bottles (in MUCH better shape) that will hold any acid just about indefinitely, without deterioration. If you've never played with them, they are very different from HDPE bottles. They have a unique ability to not "wet" at all. If you invert one, it all drains out, leaving behind a pretty much bone dry bottle. The surface tension of the liquid is much stronger than the attraction to the bottle, so the liquids bead up. Think mercury in a bottle.

 

I'll try the NaOH before I machine the PTFE containers. As for the others, about 70% are in fine shape. I'll probably scrap the other 30%.

[WarezWally]

Why is teflon so expensive anyway?

 

5L PTFE bottle = $500

 

I really should get all my sulphuric acid out of the original HDPE container soon........

[LGM]

Probably because people will pay the money for it, kinda like dark aluminum costing ~$20/lb. Also, I think it's properties prevent it from being melted and cast, which might have something to do with it.

[Swede]

From what I've read, the big markets are the biology people, and the semiconductor industry, plus any company that needs to hold samples for analysis and keep them unchanged, and/or ultrapure. Your normal HDPE bottle leaches plasticizers and other goo into the sample, ruining it for their work. The FEP/PFA bottles also can be cleaned by methods that would destroy other plastics, and restored to a condition that allows them to be used again for their ultra-pure mission.

 

Why the cost? I'm not sure. There's only one real reason I can see a home chemist needing a big FEP bottle, and that is long-term storage of nitric acid. Sulphuric and HCl do fine in HDPE. Nitric will wreck a HDPE bottle in a matter of days.

 

I had a small bottle of nitric (1 liter) in storage for years. About a week ago, I checked on it. The black plastic cap had formed a spiderweb of cracks, and when I started to open it, it crumbled to dust in my hands. The cap liner was intact, and had been the only thing keeping the nitric in the bottle and not corroding eveything in a 30 foot radius with fumes. I transferred it to an FEP bottle.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Swede

[GraniteStateRecovery]

Teflon bottles could be part of the safety requirments for the storage area or within a robotic library. They are stronger and have more resistance to crushing or bursting causing chemicals to mix. Possibly why there was no labels on bottles was they were catalogged in the robotic library.

[asilentbob]

HNO3 can be stored in HDPE for quite a long time... When at normal food freezer temperatures.

 

Remember about every 10C reaction rate doubles.

[Swede]

That has been my experience as well. Have had a liter of 68% in the lab 'fridge for 6 months at 29 degrees F, with no discernable degradation to the bottle.

 

That being said, I do plan to change the bottle out for a new one just like it the next time I have the HNO3 out for use, just to be on the safe side.

 

That is interesting... the fact that the refrigeration helps so much. At room temp, some fairly lame old nitric acid turned a good nalgene HDPE bottle into a hardened mass. Plus I worry about plasticizers in what used to be clean nitric acid.

 

The best and cheapest storage is a glass jug with a true teflon cap, or insert, that actually seals. If the vapors reach the outer cap by sneaking past the insert to bottle interface, the plastic in the rest of the cap is toast in short order, creating a dangerous situation. Conclusion: If I was "The Nitric Acid King", supplying good nitric to the industry (and I'd sell to ALL), I'd engineer glass botles with a heavy rim, and 100% PTFE caps. My customers would love me and I'd become rich. The I could feed the poor, create peace in the middle east, and put a man on Mars. I could even afford a real chemistry lab. All because of good nitric acid caps.

[GraniteStateRecovery]

If you are in laboratory working environment and Teflon bottles are readily avail ( this could mean ..example: fuck I am not walking down past my boss to the supply closet so he can ask why and what i was filling my trunk to my car with and why was i seen driving off like a bank robber out of the parking lot with a fisher scientific box I had forgotten on my roof and was reported to have been seen In the same area as the 20 or so animals that have just randomly attacked the landscape guys . so I will just use these teflon containers.) corporations wasteful and plentiful budgets that if not spent . Will result in get less next year. ........or I am wrong!

[crazyboy25]

If you are in laboratory working environment and Teflon bottles are readily avail ( this could mean ..example: fuck I am not walking down past my boss to the supply closet so he can ask why and what i was filling my trunk to my car with and why was i seen driving off like a bank robber out of the parking lot with a fisher scientific box I had forgotten on my roof and was reported to have been seen In the same area as the 20 or so animals that have just randomly attacked the landscape guys . so I will just use these teflon containers.) corporations wasteful and plentiful budgets that if not spent . Will result in get less next year. ........or I am wrong!

 

 

I don't know if your wrong because this post like most of your others is completely unintelligible your profile says your from New Hampshire but your writing makes me think your a 10 year old from Laos using a shitty web translator. Stop spamming you did it on sciencemadness and now here ask reasonable questions in ways others can understand.

 

 

Swede, why so obsessed with clean bottles? Those will work fine my guess is whatever was in the bottle sat in there for a long time and got into micro crevices either way I highly doubt you will get any side reactions from the bottles and your chems.

 

 

BTW I store my concentrated nitric acid (90+%) in the freezer and it still fumes when I open it. It's in an amber glass bottle I received my 70% nitric acid in from chemical supermarket. The cap has very mild degradation but it doesn't leak or anything.

 

I plan to get some glass bottles with ground glass or Teflon lids from Cynamr soon (the catalog they sent me with my order makes be drool!)

[GraniteStateRecovery]

well your racial slurrs are a representation how far you will go in life... If your offense is with my messaging let me explain.....I really dont sit and reread what i am typing I am a multi tasking while im at the shop. But maybe if you asked nicely I would care not for you to respond. But lets get back to the racial slurr ....what if I was from veitnam as my wife is....I would love to hear your reasoning for that.......

 

 

 

 

well first of all it an example.... ok .second I am no fan of being insulted from anyone that I have not insulted first .. and for what reason? So inspector please clearify your conclusion And please substantiate ./....I am on edge of my seat ..

 

And you use alot of absolute words.. there may be people out there that like a theif.

Edited December 29, 2008 by GraniteStateRecovery

[TheSidewinder]

We're straying off-topic, gentlemen.

 

The topic is "ID yet another mystery chem".

 

Debate ethics elsewhere.

 

GSR, a gentle reminder: "I am a multi tasking while im at the shop" may work well with some things, but Pyrotechnics requires your FULL attention. While we do let some things slide, where possible we ask that you use proper grammar and syntax. After all, even small mistakes in this hobby tend to cause serious problems.

 

And @ others who have chimed in: Leave moderating to the Moderators.

 

Everyone is welcome here, as long as they follow the rules. And that *does* includes established members, in case anyone believes otherwise.

 

Thank you.

[Swede]

Swede, why so obsessed with clean bottles? Those will work fine my guess is whatever was in the bottle sat in there for a long time and got into micro crevices either way I highly doubt you will get any side reactions from the bottles and your chems.

 

 

I plan to get some glass bottles with ground glass or Teflon lids from Cynamr soon (the catalog they sent me with my order makes be drool!)

 

I don't know. The older I get, the more obsessive I find myself about neatness and order... the shop being one glaring exception.

 

The PTFE bottles, as they exist right now, are perfectly useable. The piranha fluid removed every molecule of corruption that was not deeply embedded below the surface of the PTFE. I'd drink out of these. But they just look nasty.

 

It's cool. The bulk of the box had better stuff in it, all FEP/PFA and most of it very nice, nearly new. The flexible PFA bottles are more useful, anyhow. The little PTFE bottles are designed for solid reagents, and I have no solid reagents so reactive that they require PTFE. My plan to make neat little PTFE beakers out of them is still in place.

 

I do believe Granite was right, these things probably came from one of those robotic Protein machines. If you don't know what I'm referring to, look them up, they are really cool. It's essentially a computerized protein factory the size of a desk. The researcher inputs what sort of protein he wants, and the machine makes it for him. I don't know jack about proteins or biology, but it's a complex process.

 

The PTFE bottles are loaded with the raw materials, and the machine takes them as needed, opens them, extracts the goodies, and closes them again. Alarms pop up when a bottle gets low.

 

I need to look up Cynamr. I recently got a Spectrum Chemical catalogue. Need some Cocaine hydrochloride? I've never seen more exotic chems in my life... as if they'd sell them to me. But the lab supplies section is vast.

[crazyboy25]

Yep I get pretty obsessive about that too I like all my glass and everything clean, ordered and labeled but quite frankly I hate actually doing it.

 

 

Cynamr is great too bad I discovered them before they stopped selling chems I really missed some deals. I found spectrum a while ago and was amazed they sell cocaine and morphine not without DEA license of course. Methyl 4-acetamido-5-chloro-2-methoxybenzoate anyone? They don't sell to individuals but one company they supply to Artchemicals might http://www.artchemicals.com/ some chemicals they don't list price you have to email for a quote but they seem to carry a pretty complete list.

Edited December 29, 2008 by TheSidewinder

[Swede]

This thread has morphed a bit into non-pyro chemical suppliers... which is fine. In my blog, I detailed some of my letter-writing to Cole Palmer when I found out they would not sell to me for legitimate research. Well, I just had another "Run in" with what used to be my favorite supplier. I had ordered from these folks several times, no questions were asked.

 

I placed an online order for a pair of chemicals, one somewhat noxious, the other, not so bad. A few minutes go by, then I get a phone call. "UPS has flagged your address as a residence. We don't sell to residences. Your previous orders were sent in error." I think, "Oh no, here we go again."

 

"Let me talk to your chemist" I ask the lady. She transferred me to their in-house chemist. I explained in detail what I wanted to do, No, I am not synthesizing drugs, My lab is a separate building, all chems are under lock and key, etc.

 

"We'll call you back with our decision."

 

They decided to sell me the chems, and will fill future orders if "They are within reason." I guess I should be happy, but I am more sad than happy. Once again, a presupposition of evil intent is there, and the little guy continues to take it in the shorts. And they wonder why the individual inventor and entrepreneur is a dying breed here in the U.S.

[TheSidewinder]

.... and will fill future orders if "They are within reason."

 

Within reason according to WHOM? Some limp-dick Federal Bureaucrat?

 

The stench of Big Brother seems to have transferred to the private sector.

[WarezWally]

What did you try and order?

 

One of my favorite local chem suppliers has gone down the route of the insane pretty much demanding a DNA sample if you try and order anything chemical related, I may have inadvertently found an employee who can help me out

 

My sulphuric acid has had an affect on the HDPE container it was stored in, it seems to have made it darker in color. I have transferred a few liters to glass bottles (the ones with the blue Polypropylene caps).