Got myself some Ti sheet

[NightHawkInLight]

Hey again guys.

Last night I attended an MPAG meet for the first time and left with about 8lbs of 2x8" strips of Ti. It's thin enough that when I cut a very small hair of a sheet with scissors it will burn with the touch of a lighter, so mechanically I should be able to find a way to get it to pyro size. Though I haven't quite made up my mind how I would like to try yet. It was quite a score at $30, seeing as it's just about worth that in scrap, though I don't think I would ever discard it that easily.

 

My real question is one of alloys. Is there any way so far as anyone knows to turn Ti into a fairly brittle alloy similar to MgAl? Some way to weaken it up with carbon and Al perhaps? I'm looking mostly for a way around mechanical grinding, even though I believe it's possible, I sure know not to expect an easy time.

 

I'm even thinking it might make a great extra 10% in a MgAl alloy, If it maintained the proper brittleness. A touch longer hanging sparks. That'd be neat for me to try though not possible at the moment since I have yet to find a source of scrap Mg.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks guys, Greetings from Michigan

[Mumbles]

You could convert it into TiCl4, and reduce it with Mg. That should do the trick. It can mechannically be broken down then, and you will have essentially made sponge Ti. As far as from the sheet goes, I'm not sure.

 

The idea of including some in MgAl isn't necessarily a bad one. I have a few pounds of TiAl I purchased a few years ago. There is a very fine line between silver and white. Al cannot make silver with BP, so I was hoping that this could. I haven't tried it yet. MgAlTi may make an interesting glitter effect. MgAl forms a lacy type of glitter. Ti also forms a glitter type effect. Combined, they could be quite spectacular.

[Miech]

I have a feint memory that titanium can be hardened by heating it and rapidly cooling it by dumping ot in water, as is regulary done with iron. I expect that such titanium is quite brittle, but will spark more than the usual stuff.

 

Making sponge titanium of it sounds like a good idea however. The only drawbacks will be that you have to sacrifice magnesium (good use for those turnings in commercial available stuff I guess) and you need a source for chlorine gas. The latter can be easily made by oxidizing HCl with potassium permanganate.

[NightHawkInLight]

You could convert it into TiCl4, and reduce it with Mg. That should do the trick. It can mechannically be broken down then, and you will have essentially made sponge Ti. As far as from the sheet goes, I'm not sure.

 

The idea of including some in MgAl isn't necessarily a bad one. I have a few pounds of TiAl I purchased a few years ago. There is a very fine line between silver and white. Al cannot make silver with BP, so I was hoping that this could. I haven't tried it yet. MgAlTi may make an interesting glitter effect. MgAl forms a lacy type of glitter. Ti also forms a glitter type effect. Combined, they could be quite spectacular.

 

So the process for reducing TiCl4 with Mg would be...Let a measure of HCl eat all the Ti it can, then throw in the same molar mass of Mg as I did Ti and let sit, then The Ti should settle out to be filtered? Seems simple enough to test If I guessed the process correctly.

 

I had the same thought as how MgAlTi would behave. I bet it would get a great effect out of a nitrate star, I would love to try a glitter. If it got even brighter and 'sparkier' pops than MgAl in compositions like D1 and Winokur 20 that would look incredible.

 

Edit: Thanks Meich, I'll give heating and cooling a try, as that is very easy to test with how many sheets I have. I may try cooling in some used motor oil as well to see if can be carbonized such as steel as well to become more brittle.

Edited December 14, 2008 by NightHawkInLight

[Mumbles]

Not quite. TiCl4 can't be made with HCl. As it is formed, it will quickly hydrolyse. It requires the use of Cl2 gas. You need to use the tetra chloride as it's a liquid. Probably should be noted that I was being partially facetious in my suggestion.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroll_process

[NightHawkInLight]

Not quite. TiCl4 can't be made with HCl. As it is formed, it will quickly hydrolyse. It requires the use of Cl2 gas. You need to use the tetra chloride as it's a liquid. Probably should be noted that I was being partially facetious in my suggestion.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroll_process

 

Ah that process looks a little scary for my backyard I guess I'll have to stick with mechanical separation, or an alloy. It sure would be nice if there was one that didn't contain Mg yet was brittle, but I doubt it. I'll do some experimenting in the coming weeks.

[Frozentech]

Ah that process looks a little scary for my backyard I guess I'll have to stick with mechanical separation, or an alloy. It sure would be nice if there was one that didn't contain Mg yet was brittle, but I doubt it. I'll do some experimenting in the coming weeks.

 

Glad that Mumbles pointed out he was being facetious about making your own sponge. A nice pyrophoric Titanium volcano in the backyard, anyone ?

[Mumbles]

In theory if you could find a water stable Titanium salt it could work in solution. There is always a thermite reaction too. It might work out. Should hopefully be brittle enough to break it up, and stuff. This negates having pure ti metal though. Might as well buy TiO2 or rutile if you're going that route.

[NightHawkInLight]

In theory if you could find a water stable Titanium salt it could work in solution. There is always a thermite reaction too. It might work out. Should hopefully be brittle enough to break it up, and stuff. This negates having pure ti metal though. Might as well buy TiO2 or rutile if you're going that route.

 

I doubt it would be any more brittle than if it were heated and cooled. I'll stick to trying some alloys and such unless anyone else has more ideas.

 

Thanks for the help so far guys.

[TurboSnail]

Trying to make the Ti plates into fine powder is probably a quite expensive task, even if the starting Ti was the right price does not mean the final powder produced will be a good deal...

 

I would recommend you trade the stripes of Ti for some powdered stuff to someone playing with electrolysis, even if there are coasts in sending the stuff in the mail you would not have to get expensive and poisonous chlorine gas and so on... There is always the possibility to hok the Ti stripes to a power sorce and trye to make some chlorate by electrolysis buth thats another story...

 

If you are lucky you know witch grade of Titanium you have? I would personally like to have 4 stripes / plates of Ti Gr7 or Ti Gr11 to play with (And i do have a stash of difrent powderred Ti grades (Sponge / TiFe in a few diffrent particelsices) to trade with if thats the case

 

But if you somehow manage to make an alloy of Mg/Al/Ti and possibly Fe that is brittle enough to make into powder it would indeed be interesting to read about how you did it and how the final product behaved in flame and mixtures. (Si and Mn might yeld brittle enought alloys with Ti? Buth thats a gues.

 

_@"

[Swede]

What is the thickness of the sheet? It might make some fine cathode material for a perc cell. You could probably get much more than your $30 by selling it on eBay.

 

If you want to mechanically work Ti into some sort of pyrophoric form, draw filing might work. Clamp a piece in a vise, with the edge up, and with a fine, new file, begin draw-filing. The particles that come off will be surprisingly uniform, and the mesh size will depend upon a number of factors, the biggest being what sort of file you are using.

 

Google "Draw filing" before you try it; it is a very specific process that is NOT your typical "Hack away at the sheet with a file." The file needs to be perpendicular to the work, and the file is worked as if it were a spokeshave. You can very quickly gather an appreciable pile of Ti particles.

 

And there's always a belt sander, but I've always hated that idea for Al and Ti because your product is badly contaminated with aluminum oxide, or other abrasive particles. You might be able to dissolve the abrasives with weak acids which shouldn't dissolve the Ti. Just a thought... someone with better chem knowledge might be aware of some mechanism that would prevent this sort of cleanup.

 

All in all, I'd either use it in a perc sell or sell it, rather than convert it to a pyrophoric form.

[NightHawkInLight]

If you are lucky you know witch grade of Titanium you have? I would personally like to have 4 stripes / plates of Ti Gr7 or Ti Gr11 to play with (And i do have a stash of difrent powderred Ti grades (Sponge / TiFe in a few diffrent particelsices) to trade with if thats the case

 

But if you somehow manage to make an alloy of Mg/Al/Ti and possibly Fe that is brittle enough to make into powder it would indeed be interesting to read about how you did it and how the final product behaved in flame and mixtures. (Si and Mn might yeld brittle enought alloys with Ti? Buth thats a gues.

 

_@"

 

I'm not sure of the alloy, sorry. The sheets are 0.0005" thick, which to me is just really cool. How foolish of me to not think of using it in a chlorate cell!! You better bet I'll get started on that right away. I have a stack of the sheets about 3" thick so that makes what...~6,000 sheets? This deal just gets sweeter and sweeter. I figure if I want to powder the stuff easiest and fastest it would be to stack the sheets up and vice them, then drill holes through them. The resulting turning's could not possibly be to large for pyro grade, since with a pair of scissors I can cut a hair off an edge of a sheet and it'll burn fine. The turnings would at least be good in comets.

 

Another method I really very much want to try is to melt the Ti in a charcoal chimney similar to how you would make MgAl. Once the Ti is molten and the air around it is fairly void of o2, I would throw into the soup can a fairly large amount of airfloat charcoal. The hope is that with a large enough amount of charcoal intermixed with the molten Ti (assuming the large amounts of charcoal can be kept from separating from the Ti with vigorous stirring) When it cools, hopefully you are left an extremely brittle, high carbon bubbled Ti. Though I am more likely to try with Al first since I have more of it, and the concept should hold true. I also think it would be great for Al production as well.

 

Main problem: likely the carbon will want to rise to the surface. Not sure if it is able to be overcome yet. Second problem, you are left with a lot of carbon still in your Ti/Al, which to me is acceptable in some circumstances since they both leave a long hanging spark. Perhaps the second problem can be solved by using a water soluble substance instead of carbon. Ball milled table salt is a possibility.

 

And if that were to work, that's when I would get excited. If salt could be used and washed out to get pure Ti or Al, then other salts could be used and not washed out. That is when you would get into using things like strontium carbonate, and copper chloride to mix into your molten alloy...That could potentially lead to truly colored tails on stars, comets, fountains...Something that has not been achieved besides through microstars to my knowledge. I picture an ammonium perchlorate blue star ahead of a hanging bright red tail...

 

Now I'm off to try to fall asleep with molten metal and chlorate cells in my head...It's gonna be a long night. And a big day tomorrow.

 

Edit: A flaw in my plan of melting Ti at all, the melting point is at 3000+ degrees Fahrenheit , where Al is right around 1200. That's a significant amount of heat to pull out of a charcoal chimney...I still plan to test the previous methods for powdering Al, sense I also have quite a bit of that laying around in the form of turnings. As for the Ti, my best bet looks like it's gonna be filing or drilling.

Edited December 16, 2008 by NightHawkInLight

[Swede]

I had no idea you were talking sheet that thin. What the heck was it used for? Shim stock?

 

I'm not sure of the alloy, sorry. The sheets are 0.0005" thick, which to me is just really cool. How foolish of me to not think of using it in a chlorate cell!! You better bet I'll get started on that right away. I have a stack of the sheets about 3" thick so that makes what...~6,000 sheets? This deal just gets sweeter and sweeter. I figure if I want to powder the stuff easiest and fastest it would be to stack the sheets up and vice them, then drill holes through them. The resulting turning's could not possibly be to large for pyro grade, since with a pair of scissors I can cut a hair off an edge of a sheet and it'll burn fine. The turnings would at least be good in comets.

 

You won't get powder, but you will get some incredibly fine turnings... that's a good idea, and I think your best bet. 0.0005" is too thin for cathode use, unless you backed it with some phenolic or PVC sheet.

 

That material IMO is too exotic to waste. Save some of it for a rainy day. Try your drill trick, but do it on just a small portion to see what happens. But the cost of getting Ti into a sheet that thin is quite high, and the material is valuable. Much easier just to buy Ti powder.

 

I think if you try to melt it or incorporate it into magnalium or similar, the high surface area is going to make it go pyrophoric on you.

[optimus]

Hmm... interesting....

 

I wonder.... how about lining some massive cylindrical salute cases with the stuff? Does it even bend?

 

Might prove interesting. Does seem a shame to just make it into turnings....

[qwezxc12]

Hmm... interesting....

I wonder.... how about lining some massive cylindrical salute cases with the stuff? Does it even bend?

Might prove interesting. Does seem a shame to just make it into turnings....

 

I volunteer! I just got a pile of 3" and 4" heavy wall (5/8" wall) Salute Cores from Precocious Pyrotechnics and was going to venture into the 'undiscovered country' of 4" salutes for New Years

 

...also got 4" and 6" canister / cap sets to try.

[NightHawkInLight]

I had no idea you were talking sheet that thin. What the heck was it used for? Shim stock?

 

 

 

You won't get powder, but you will get some incredibly fine turnings... that's a good idea, and I think your best bet. 0.0005" is too thin for cathode use, unless you backed it with some phenolic or PVC sheet.

 

That material IMO is too exotic to waste. Save some of it for a rainy day. Try your drill trick, but do it on just a small portion to see what happens. But the cost of getting Ti into a sheet that thin is quite high, and the material is valuable. Much easier just to buy Ti powder.

 

I think if you try to melt it or incorporate it into magnalium or similar, the high surface area is going to make it go pyrophoric on you.

 

Well, that's the size the guy I bought it from has written on the top sheet in sharpie. I would estimate it to be about 1.5x the thickness of heavy aluminum foil, whatever that may be. About like a sheet of normal printer paper. It is certainly not as easily bent as Al foil, it has some flex to it before crimping. Still quite thin. I forget where the guy said it came from, something to do with his work but I don't recall exactly. I'll have to ask at the next meet in February.

 

I don't think alloying it is an option now anyway because of the high melting point as I mentioned before. What do you suppose sheet this thin could be used for? I'm sure if I was into model planes I'd have a blast with it, but as of right now I don't have much to do besides drill it up for pyro.

 

Hmm... interesting....

 

I wonder.... how about lining some massive cylindrical salute cases with the stuff? Does it even bend?

 

Might prove interesting. Does seem a shame to just make it into turnings....

 

I think it is to solid for that, though it is flexable. The stuff is strong. For its thin size it has the strength of some decently thick standard sheet metal and I doubt a salute would break it into small enough pieces to become ignited. Could be wrong. Either way I'm not a big fan of salutes whatsoever. I have to large a Youtube following to set an example like that.

[tentacles]

I would bet that it is actually .005" thick - that would be consistent with the sheet of paper feel, and the relative stiffness. .0005" (half a thou!) would be thin aluminum foil thickness. You might look into selling some to the model airplane guys, someone out there would no doubt dearly love to skin a model jet with Titanium sheet! It sure seems like a waste to just shred it for pyro, but we do what we can with what we got, right? Finding decently priced Ti is always difficult - I got in on some of the 'group buys' on passfire a while back. $10/lb is a fair price indeed for sponge and flake.

[NightHawkInLight]

I would bet that it is actually .005" thick - that would be consistent with the sheet of paper feel, and the relative stiffness. .0005" (half a thou!) would be thin aluminum foil thickness. You might look into selling some to the model airplane guys, someone out there would no doubt dearly love to skin a model jet with Titanium sheet! It sure seems like a waste to just shred it for pyro, but we do what we can with what we got, right? Finding decently priced Ti is always difficult - I got in on some of the 'group buys' on passfire a while back. $10/lb is a fair price indeed for sponge and flake.

I would bet the thickness is 0.005 as well. I was a bit suspicious of that measurement from the start. Some sheets are certainly slightly thicker/thinner than others.

 

It would be a shame to use it for pyro, but I've been really wanting Ti for a very long time. For the meantime I'll be sparring with it in case I do find someone who is willing to pay a nice price. I can imagine it would be great for a plane, but it's only in 8"x just shy of 3" strips. It would be hard to patch the stuff together, but I guess those model guys are good at that sort of thing.

 

It seems like there would be so many possibilities but I just can't think of anything I would want it for right now besides comet tails. We'll see.

 

$10/lb for Ti flake or sponge is great, more than half off what it costs elsewhere. Passfire is great for that sort of thing it seems. I got my 1 week trial membership about a month back and saw deals I didn't even know were possible. I was all lined up to get a big order of ammonium perchlorate when the deal fell through last minute. Disappointing, but overall best for my finances.

[tentacles]

Actually the AP did go through - I think he's sold it all now, though. It came out about $3.50/lb with shipping (from FL to ND). I got myself 40lbs of it, that's a pretty nice price for free flowing AP!

[Mumbles]

With the money you could sell that sheet for, you could probably easily afford a passfire membership, and more than it's weight in Ti sponge. I don't know if he has anymore, but there was a guy selling it on passfire in 10lb increments for about $12 a pound. Pretty nice stuff too. I now go to him for a lot of my canister shell questions.

[NightHawkInLight]

Actually the AP did go through - I think he's sold it all now, though. It came out about $3.50/lb with shipping (from FL to ND). I got myself 40lbs of it, that's a pretty nice price for free flowing AP!

Ah that's to bad. I mean for me

It's still probably for the best for now that I didn't buy it. I still have a few pounds anyway, everything but nitrate and charcoal is used up pretty slowly in my case.

 

With the money you could sell that sheet for, you could probably easily afford a passfire membership, and more than it's weight in Ti sponge. I don't know if he has anymore, but there was a guy selling it on passfire in 10lb increments for about $12 a pound. Pretty nice stuff too. I now go to him for a lot of my canister shell questions.

I'll be on the lookout for a buyer. It definitely appeals to me to get back on passfire. I don't know if I could afford 8lbs of sponge after a membership...But hey maybe the stuff is worth more than I think. Ebay has some plates being sold for some pretty ridiculously high prices. I think it may hurt me that I don't know the alloy though.

[Swede]

0.005" sounds a LOT more reasonable than 0.0005" which would handle and feel almost like the foil from a stick of gum. It would easily bend and fold without resistance.

 

Still it's some cool stuff and worth saving. Probably an alloy, not pure, as most Ti does get alloyed to improve strength.

[NightHawkInLight]

0.005" sounds a LOT more reasonable than 0.0005" which would handle and feel almost like the foil from a stick of gum. It would easily bend and fold without resistance.

 

Still it's some cool stuff and worth saving. Probably an alloy, not pure, as most Ti does get alloyed to improve strength.

Yeah those things I am pretty sure are true. Some really does seem thinner than others. In a bit of online searching the only thing I could come up with that uses Ti this thin in these sorts of strips is engraving plaques. I really wish I would have asked the guy what it was from, but at the time I hadn't thought I might find a use for it besides grinding the stuff up. Hmm, it might make a cool custom scratch plate if I ever get around to building a guitar...Though fingerprints show up on it like I've never seen before, light brown and detailed. I thought at first maybe the oils were reacting in some way with the Ti, but they wiped right off with some cotton.

[Swede]

Ti is normally very unreactive, but it can be anodized into brilliant, fluorescing, shifting colors that remind one of mother of pearl. Jewelers make earrings from it, among other things. The anodize process is easy, and if you are into guitars and such, it might make some really cool (and colorful) inlays.

[optimus]

Ages ago I bought my GF a Ti ring which was beautifully anodised. Loads of blues and purples in there...

 

The guy even sent me some Ti bar ends to play with : )