Yankie Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 (edited) I have been in search of a KP blue with good colour and saturation (or at least the best you can get with KP) So far the most promising have been: Conkling Blue #1 - cut, rolled Potassium perchlorate 65 Black copper oxide 14 Parlon 9 Red gum 7 Dextrin 5 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Baechle System 6: Blue Potassium Perchlorate 30 Barium Nitrate 20 Parlon 20 Copper(II) Oxide, black 10 Aluminum, atom, 120-325 mesh 10 Hexamine 6 Red Gum 4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pihko KP #2 Potassium Perchlorate 63 Parlon 14 Copper(II) Oxide, black 13 Red Gum 10 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pihko KP #3 Potassium Perchlorate 65 Copper(I) Chloride 16 Parlon 11 Sulfur 10 Red Gum 7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hashashan Blue Potassium Perchlorate 62Hexamine 8Sulfur 10Polyvinyl Chloride 7Copper (I) Chloride 13~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wilbur's Winning Blue Pyrotechnic Formula Potassium perchlorate 65% Copper oxide 14% Red gum 7% Parlon 5% Dextrin 5% Dechlorane 4% (because of dechloranes limited availiability I suspect it can be replaced with parlon) I have not personally tried any of these, I just went for the simpler ones without chemicals such as Paris green and dichromate. If pictures or videos can be posted for any of the above compositions, or if you could add a new composition it would be great. Also if you know of any good purple/violets post them too. Edited November 18, 2008 by fredbert 1
Chris Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 The Conkling formula can be improved drastically by substituting Red gum with Hexamine. I made two batches of the comp, one with the original formula and one with Hexamine. One can really tell the difference. Hexamine has the advantage of burning cooler than other fuels and it has also gives a larger flame envelope.
PyroMan LTU Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 thanks, Chris, I will try with hexamine, the best blues I have ever had are:Veline blue metallic Potassium perchlorate 53Red gum 9Magnalium, -200 mesh 6Black copper oxide 14Parlon 14Dextrin 4 (name unknown) KClO4 - 60Basic copper carbonate - 20PVC - 15Dextrine - 5
Mumbles Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 Once again, this section is for tried and true formulas. This shell has wilbur blue in the center. It doesn't show up quite as well on video, but you get an idea. It's much more blue than it appears. http://www.apcforum.net/Mumbles/Brocade.wmv http://www.apcforum.net/Mumbles/sept.wmvThe same stars are also in the first mine (the insert shells), and the 3" shell in the center.
qwezxc12 Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 (edited) Not too much to offer, as I am sold on AP blue right now. But I used to use Shimizu Blue #1. I thought it was pretty good for a KP blue.Source: Composition from Shimizu FAST, page 216. Listed under the name 'Blue Star I': Potassium perchlorate.............................60.8Red Gum...............................................9.0Basic copper carbonate............................12.3Parlon...................................................13.1Soluble glutinous rice starch.....................4.8I substituted Dextrin 1:1 for SGRS, and pumped with 75/25 water/alc.Video: Shimizu Blue #1 I've also used 'Shimizu B-70', which is nearly identical except it uses Copper Oxide instead of Carbonate for a colorant and the binder is listed as an addition, not a part.Note: The name is in quotes because I have a copy of FAST, and B-70 is not in it. Shimizu also never even mentions Dextrin as a binder, sticking (pun intended) to SGRS, Wheat Starch/Flour Casein, Gelatin, and NC. So, I do not know where this formula originated, or if it is even Shimizu's: Potassium Perchlorate..............................63.8 Red Gum................................................9.5 Copper Oxide..........................................12.9 Parlon.....................................................13.8 Dextrin....................................................+4%I have old videos of some B-70 blue shells, but can't seem to find them at the moment...they're alright, but I think B-1 is better. YMMV... Here's a violet I worked up from a old commercial red comet formula. I made all colors. It's definitely more Violet than Purple...you can play with the Strontium vs. Copper percentages to adjust the tint to your liking. Potassium Perchlorate................................43 Strontium Carbonate...................................7Copper Oxide.............................................7 Saran........................................................14 Magnallium, -200 mesh...............................10.5 Red Gum...................................................3.5 Charcoal....................................................7 Titanium, Sponge.......................................7 These comets were bound with Resorcinol Resin thinned with Alcohol. The original post with details is posted in the comets thread...Video: 2" Violet Comet Edited November 18, 2008 by qwezxc12
crazyboy25 Posted November 19, 2008 Posted November 19, 2008 Not too much to offer, as I am sold on AP blue right now. Are you still using that AP/hexamine blue you posted? Ammonium Perchlorate..........62Copper Oxide.......................13Hexamine............................10Saran..................................11Dextrin................................4 or do you have a new/improved composition? The test of any pyrotechnic is a good blue I am sold on euturs blue but I have heard AP/CuBz is even better (ever time I try it I can't wash out the sodium ions) Maybe someday I will buy some benzoic acid and follow the directions from the best of AFN III. Sorry for hijacking the thread I know its about KP blues but the fact is most times KP gets the comp to hot and washes out the color which is the reason good blues are so difficult to make.
tentacles Posted November 19, 2008 Posted November 19, 2008 Crazy: I could mix up some AP/CuBz and try out my new camera for the color.. If you use K benz to make the CuBz, obviously there won't be a sodium issue. I've heard that making it via benzoic acid has a problem with where the benzoate attaches to the copper ion or somesuch.
crazyboy25 Posted November 19, 2008 Posted November 19, 2008 Crazy: I could mix up some AP/CuBz and try out my new camera for the color.. If you use K benz to make the CuBz, obviously there won't be a sodium issue. I've heard that making it via benzoic acid has a problem with where the benzoate attaches to the copper ion or somesuch. That would be great tentacles! I've heard a lot about it but never seen it I never bothered getting K benzoate because it wasn't really worth it. there are potassium ions you need to wash away with k benzoate but they are much less evident. I just assumed the benzoic acid method would eliminate any ions floating around. I thought about buying CuBz from skylighter but its pricey. I could post the CuBz synth via benzoic acid if anyone needs it.
tentacles Posted November 19, 2008 Posted November 19, 2008 The guy who makes the CuBz for skylighter sells it independantly as well. It's far cheaper to make it yourself, especially if you have a filtering funnel and vacuum flask. That's what makes washing it far less troublesome. I made like a lb of the stuff last time I made it. Maybe more.. I've got a big ol jar full.
Mumbles Posted November 19, 2008 Posted November 19, 2008 The benzoate always attaches to the copper ion. It's a ligand. So maybe it's because this is what my group partly does research on, but I've been doing some thinking about this. Copper (II) Benzoate has a few possible forms. They are different, and will possibly have different properties. I could see a hot water formation (benzoic acid), being different from a room temp or cold water prep. It can either exist square planar:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...ar-3D-balls.png Or as a dimer:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...er-3D-balls.pngThats copper acetate, but you get the idea. The two oxygens from the carboxyl group would coordinate and bridge.
qwezxc12 Posted November 19, 2008 Posted November 19, 2008 (edited) Are you still using that AP/hexamine blue you posted?Yup...Last shells were a 6in blue rolled on Win20 cores, and a 4in Blue and Ti streamer (Video)...shot it at a July 5th bonfire. Nice! I have a lot of AP, as I use it for Go-getters, too...I wound up getting 30 or so lbs of AP (and some other stuff ) from Firefox just under the wire before the CPSC order went in force and I just got another 20 lbs of mil-spec (@$3.50/lb from a Passfire member...woot!) Copper Oxide and Hexamine are easy to get and I love the color, so I haven't bothered with trying CuBenz or metallic copper powder compositions. AP, being an oxidizer whose products are all gaseous, has many other applications, too Edited November 19, 2008 by qwezxc12
tentacles Posted November 20, 2008 Posted November 20, 2008 QW: AP isn't restricted under the injunction, actually.. That is a badass price on copper oxide, though. I though I'd scored a hell of a deal on a bit a while back at $5.40/lb.
qwezxc12 Posted November 20, 2008 Posted November 20, 2008 QW: AP isn't restricted under the injunction, actually.. That is a badass price on copper oxide, though. I though I'd scored a hell of a deal on a bit a while back at $5.40/lb. Whoops...I guess I should proof-read better Sorry for the confusion... Yeah, AP isn't restricted...my 'under the wire' comment was supposed to be more for the acqusition of as much as I could afford of other oxidizers (mainly K-Perc). FireFox still has AP from $6 - $9.75 a lb, plus Haz-Mat depending on the qty. The 20 lbs of mil-spec was AP, not CuO (damn pesky punctuation)...so I was happy paying $3.50/lb. for it. $5.40/lb for CuO is a smokin' deal. www.uspigment.com still has it for $6/lb on down, and www.amherstpotters.com still has it a little under $6, I think. It certainly isn't getting cheaper. Wonder why my Southern Copper shares are still tanking
Yankie Posted November 22, 2008 Author Posted November 22, 2008 (edited) In the Wilbur blue formula could you replace the Dechlorane with some more parlon? EDIT: Just realised that Wilbur blue is Conkling blue with 5 parlon and 4 dechlorane rather than 9 parlon. Edited November 22, 2008 by fredbert
tentacles Posted November 22, 2008 Posted November 22, 2008 QW: was that the AP that was on passfire recently? I bought 40lbs of that stuff. Hard to beat the price, cheaper than KP by the drum!
Mumbles Posted November 22, 2008 Posted November 22, 2008 Hard to say. I used the original formula, with dechlorane. I'm sure it will still yield a mighty fine blue with parlon instead. Let me know how it goes. I have a whole lot more parlon than dechlorane.
Yankie Posted November 22, 2008 Author Posted November 22, 2008 Hard to say. I used the original formula, with dechlorane. I'm sure it will still yield a mighty fine blue with parlon instead. Let me know how it goes. I have a whole lot more parlon than dechlorane. I am getting 100g KClO4, 100g Parlon and some MgAl within a week, I will do some experimenting first by comparing several of the above formulas and then trying the better ones with a small amount of MgAl for imcreased brightness. I might also do some experimenting with replacing dextrin with more parlon ect.Then I can make a big order from Czort. P.S. has anyone else tried replacing red gum with hexamine?
Mumbles Posted November 22, 2008 Posted November 22, 2008 ...I've also used 'Shimizu B-70', which is nearly identical except it uses Copper Oxide instead of Carbonate for a colorant and the binder is listed as an addition, not a part.Note: The name is in quotes because I have a copy of FAST, and B-70 is not in it. Shimizu also never even mentions Dextrin as a binder, sticking (pun intended) to SGRS, Wheat Starch/Flour Casein, Gelatin, and NC. So, I do not know where this formula originated, or if it is even Shimizu's:... Forgot to answer this one. It is infact Shimizu's. I don't have my copy on hand, but I'm about 98% sure it came from "Studies on Blue and Purple Flame Compositions Made with Potassium Perchlorate", which is an article he wrote in Pyrotechnica #6.
qwezxc12 Posted November 22, 2008 Posted November 22, 2008 QW: was that the AP that was on passfire recently? I bought 40lbs of that stuff. Hard to beat the price, cheaper than KP by the drum!Yes, it was. I agree, deals like that and others, like Perc for $4/lb, and Ti sponge for $10/lb make the subscription worth it just for the chems...it's like Sam's Club for Pyros! Best money I EVER spent in this hobby. Forgot to answer this one. It is infact Shimizu's. I don't have my copy on hand, but I'm about 98% sure it came from "Studies on Blue and Purple Flame Compositions Made with Potassium Perchlorate", which is an article he wrote in Pyrotechnica #6.Thanks for the source confirmation - I don't have that one.
harders Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 (edited) Here is an Kp Blue called Morning Glory Blue: Kp 60,8 CuCO3 12,3 Parlon 13,1 Red Gum 9 Dex 4,8 ( in this fall: 1,5 PVB- Polyvinylbutyral -http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=DE&NR=4343725&KC=&FT=E it was an 100er Shell with 7-8mm Roundstars http://pyrobin.com/files/100er blue.avi Sorry my English is bad!! Greets Edited November 26, 2008 by harders
Miech Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 Hmm, that looks like a nice blue on video. I'm gonna try that one soon, as I am currently limited to CuCO3 for blue stars.
FrKoNaLeaSh1010 Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 If i remember correctly you can convert copper carbonate into copper oxide through thermal decomposition.
Mumbles Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 You can. Boiling it with Potassium hydroxide would be my prefered choice though for more managable conditions. It should work. I made a whole bunch of CuO from CuSO4 by mixing in NaOH. He heat of solvation of the NaOH(added as a solid) is actually enough to make it decompose into CuO. This was back in the day when I was naive enough to think it's possible to wash out sodium sulfate from a blue colorant.
Miech Posted November 26, 2008 Posted November 26, 2008 I actually made my first copper oxide using copper chloride and NaOH. By now I think that is a waste of chemicals, as just buying it is cheaper. The money that buys enough KOH for a pound CuO is enough to buy several pounds of ceramic grade CuO. I just didn't find time yet to bike to the supplier 30 kilometers from here.
Yankie Posted November 27, 2008 Author Posted November 27, 2008 Here is an Kp Blue called Morning Glory Blue: Kp 60,8 CuCO3 12,3 Parlon 13,1 Red Gum 9 Dex 4,8 ( in this fall: 1,5 PVB- Polyvinylbutyral -http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=DE&NR=4343725&KC=&FT=E it was an 100er Shell with 7-8mm Roundstars http://pyrobin.com/files/100er blue.avi Sorry my English is bad!! Greets Thats a nice blue in the video, Thanks.One thing, what do you mean by: "this fall: 1,5 PVB- Polyvinylbutyral"
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