Ammonium Perchlorate and Mg

[NightHawkInLight]

Hello all my pyrotechnic friends from the past, it sure has been a while since I've been on here. I hope you're all doing well.

 

I come back seeking advice about keeping down the reaction between ammonium perchlorate and magnesium in star compositions. I've been working on a purple strobe star formula for the last few days now. A mixture of AmPerc, Mg and copper sulfate. It burns incredibly beautifully when burned as the dry comp with brilliant flashes of purple light. My problem however has been that when I go to dampen the comp the standard runaway reaction starts up and I'm forced to dump all my valuable mg powder and AmPerc into a water bucket to sink slowly to its death.

 

It is such an easily started reaction even with my large spherical ( also coated) Mg. Anyone think boric acid on its own would do the trick? I've never had problems with this in such a severe way before so I hate to experiment to much without advice when I'm using such a scarcity as Mg powder and such a pricey chemical such as AmPerc. I blew through 46g of Mg powder already experimenting today.

 

Thanks for any advice.

[psyco_1322]

Hay, good seeing you back around.

 

One thing you could do is coat the Mg in potassium dichromate. You say its coated but Im not sure what with. Another option is to coat it with linseed oil, a lot more messier but no toxic chems to work with. Boric acid is not going to help, several will say that, its not the same reaction as NO3+Al. You could try some anyways, doubt it will work but you never know. I had reactions between AP and magnalium, I added boric acid, it cooled down. That shouldn't in theory work but it seemed to help a bit. It was magnalium that was mixed with turnings so there is a good chance there was Mg in there too, possibly causing the problems.

 

OT, the guys over at Passfire would like to see you become a member.

[Mumbles]

Ammonium Perchlorate is the one chemical that linseed oil is not effective against. Good luck finding real linseed oil as well.

 

You also never make any mention what the "normal" methods of wetting you are referring to is. I hope you're not even considering wetting it with water. If the AP doesn't get the Mg, the copper sulfate sure will. Dichromate coating probably isn't suitable for protection against copper sulfate. Copper sulfate really is not suitable in pyro uses. Catch me on AIM or send me a PM and I can get you on the right track for purple and blue strobes.

[psyco_1322]

Real linseed oil? Boiled linseed oil isn't real? Im confused. AP and boiled linseed oil make a good incendiary though.

[Mumbles]

I remember hearing something about needing raw linseed oil. I dunno, I'd have to do some research to remember exactly what I read. The main point I remember was that the stuff from the stores wouldn't work for some reason. Now that I think of it, that doesn't make sense. I probably shouldn't have made such an unsubstantiated statement.

[tentacles]

If you do want to try this formula, the only way I can see it working would be to use acetone + nc to bind. It shouldn't affect the color or the strobing - might even enhance the strobe. What were you using to bind it with water? Dextrin?

 

Shellac and alcohol (DRIED) might work also.

[NightHawkInLight]

Thanks Mumbles for that bit of info. I'll see if I can get you on Aim fairly soon, I see you're reading this topic as I type this, maybe I'll just send a PM. Concerning how I wet the composition, I use acetone since I was trying nitrocellulose as a binder. As soon as the acetone was evaporated enough that the comp wasn't swimming, it started slowly reacting and stayed in a long continuous bubble until fully dry and totally unbound because of the bubbles breaking up the NC.

 

I then did try using liquid starch as a binder which contains some water. This became immediately violent with bubbles and heat, but because of it being only a test, it was with a very small amount and was safely disposed of. I won't try that again.

 

Unfortunately I'm now out of NC so I'll have to make more if I hope to bind anything without using water.

 

If copper sulfate really is unsuitable as you say, that will be a shame. This really gives out a radiantly purple flash. But, if it must be done another way, so be it.

 

Thanks psyco for the welcome, I hope to be back more frequently just to see what everyone's up to. No way I could try to read every thread like I once made an effort to though. Also I sure would like to join Passfire...And the PGI, and the MPAG, also I'd like a new guitar...All in good time I hope. I think I'll make the PGI a slightly higher priority for now since I would like to attend this upcoming convention, Passfire's next.

 

Sidenote: You can buy linseed oil as a thinner for oil paints. It's mildly expensive though.

[Richtee]

Unfortunately I'm now out of NC so I'll have to make more if I hope to bind anything without using water.

 

Seen any of the poly glue thread? I have had some success binding with the glue and acetone. Dunno about it preventing reactions, however. Might be worth a small trial.

 

I'd be interested in that comp BTW :{) I have come to the conclusion I now need to procure some A perc. Sigh. Never ends does it, this chem purchasing...LOL

[fredjr]

Here's a link posted on passfire awhile ago for pure raw linseed oil http://www.solventfreepaint.com/cleaned_linseed_oil.htm

I definitely remember reading in Shimuzu FAST that it's not safe to use copper sulfate. Even if you get them bound without a reaction there is a good possibility of spontaneous combustion.

[NightHawkInLight]

Here's a link posted on passfire awhile ago for pure raw linseed oil http://www.solventfreepaint.com/cleaned_linseed_oil.htm

I definitely remember reading in Shimuzu FAST that it's not safe to use copper sulfate. Even if you get them bound without a reaction there is a good possibility of spontaneous combustion.

 

Hmm more bad news. It's not looking good for this comp.

[optimus]

The only safe, practical way of making purple strobes I'm aware of involves Tetramethylammonium and/or Guanidine Nitrates. I'd love to hear if there are other routes, but yea, I've heard bad things about Copper Sulphate strobe mixes - seems they're unsafe/impractical. Shame really.

[mormanman]

I'll just throw this out there. No one flame me really. I don't know

if anyone has thought of this but tried melting Petro Jelly to the

real liquid state and put a heat lamp on it while your rolling,

pumping or cutting. The Petro Jelly I think should work b/c it has no

water or alcohols and its not really organic (last part came out of my

butt). I would try it.

I'm interested.

[tentacles]

mormon: As a binder, fuel, moisture protectant, or what? It's used by some with whistle fuel, to help desensitize and lubricate/bind granules for pressing rockets and such.

 

optimus: I believe the fear here, is the formation of copper perchlorate from the interaction of the sulfate and an alkali metal perchlorate (or in this case, NH4ClO4).

[mormanman]

Well we were talking about a binder right or a solvent for the binder. Right?

[mormanman]

But it will still burn and you can prime it really easily if you need to since the petro jelly is kind of sticky.

[Mumbles]

That still doesn't mean it will work though.

[mormanman]

But does it mean it won't work? I think it would b/c either way it burns.

[Richtee]

But does it mean it won't work? I think it would b/c either way it burns.

 

THINK. Goopy star. 5G launch. What happens?

[Mumbles]

With mormanman's logic I can bind my stars with red gum and acetone and fire them wet. Acetone burns so the stars should be fine right?

 

No, that stands no chance of working.

[mormanman]

Petro jelly and acetone, red gum aren't the same thing. I would think that petro jelly would hold together better than red gum and acetone when wet or gooie in our case. They probably would be destroyed by the burst thuogh.

 

Petro jelly and acetone, red gum aren't the same thing. I would think that petro jelly would hold together better than red gum and acetone when wet or gooie in our case. They probably would be destroyed by the burst thuogh.

[Mumbles]

I'm just following you (poor) logic pattern.

[psyco_1322]

Wow^ that was fun.

 

Makes me wonder though. Coating Mg in the jelly? Possible protectant of it?

 

Edit: Nevermind, It would just kinda wash off, Im not sure what I was thinking.

Edited October 19, 2008 by psyco_1322

[flying fish]

Petroleum jelly is just a thick solution of some waxy and liquid petroleum distillates, they are never going to solidify (except by "freezing" at very cold temperatures, but that's irrelevent). Therefore, I can't see them having much use in binding stars. Like Richtee said, they are going to be "goopy" at best. If I recall correctly, it is used in small quantities to help permanently "dampen" benzoates in (pressed) whistle rockets, but in an open star it is probably not going to have any adhesion properties.

 

I'm using Red gum in methanol for my AP stars, but only with marginal success. For some reason the stars keep falling apart on me. I'm going to have to start trying that poly glue thing as well...Seems I hear a lot of praise for it here.

[Mumbles]

Are you pumping, cutting or rolling the stars? I've only tried to cut red gum bound stars. It actually works fairly well. They are a bit crumbly depending on other ingredients, but once they dry, they are pretty solid.

[psyco_1322]

Ive cut and pumped red gum stars, AP and not. They work equally well. Im not sure if I have rolled with red gum, maybe, cant remember.

 

Makes me wonder though. Coating Mg in red gum? Possible protectant of it?