Destruction of paper

[Rooster]

Hey guys!

 

Long time no see. I have got a problem I would like to get some opinions about.

 

A friend of mine works in the special forces, and has asked me to propose a way for them to destruct large amounts of paper in short time (faster and better than a paper shredder). The amount is supposed to be like 2-3 cubic feet. It is probably going to be an emergency top-secret files destuction thingy.

 

The criteria:

 

- Has to be able to handle the aforementiones amount

 

- Preferrably works inside a building (ie. not too hot temps (possibly with a kind of furnace), which might cut down options)

 

- Has to work FAST

 

- Not weirdly expensive (ie. burning zirconium)

 

 

 

My thoughts are leading towards either magnesium or thermite, both of which would need quite a lot more insulation than a normal flower-pot for the amounts. This would be able to burn through a stack of paper pretty fast. Explosives are out of the question, there will be people not too far away.

 

Any other good ideas or comments? Acids? Something that may liquify the paper?

[Mumbles]

Hey man, good to see you around again.

 

Sulfuric acid may work pretty well. And what is wrong with burning zirconium?

 

I must run to class, but I will likely be thinking of ideas for you rather than paying attention.

[Pretty green flame]

What's wrong with a steel drum and some gasoline

[oskarchem]

I guess it's the not too high temps, and the fact that it's going to be done inside.

 

I was thinking Magnesium, although it is quite pricey. Aqua Regia?

[Pretty green flame]

I guess it's the not too high temps, and the fact that it's going to be done inside.

 

I was thinking Magnesium, although it is quite pricey. Aqua Regia?

 

Oh yeah, and a magnesium fire is as cold as it gets eh. Maybe some sort of acid would probably be the best as in cleanest (Sulfuric), other than that, some gasoline and a match or an oxy/acetylene torch which will burn through the stuff fast. Paper burns, make use of it, if it's top secret stuff then no expense should be spared in destroying the documents, fire basicly takes anything out. If it's good enough to wipe out a deadly virus then 2 cubic feet of paper shouldn't present much of a problem.

[oskarchem]

Ok, the Mg fire is very hot but it doesn't make black fumes which would probably turn the whole room black.

[FrankRizzo]

The problem with destroying large amounts of material like this with heat is the insulating factor of ash as well as the oxygen demand. Anyone who's tried to burn a thick stack of junk-mail in the fireplace can attest that only the top few layers get burned, while the rest of the material remains insulated by a layer of ash. Fuels like gasoline can help, but unless the pages are stirred to expose a fresh surface, it takes a considerable amount of time to burn all the way through.

 

The best way I've found to process lots of paper quickly is to stack the paper on edge before igniting. Air more readily passes up between the paper layers, and pages fall away from the stack as they are consumed, exposing fresh material. Obviously this doesn't scale well in a filing cabinet sort of situation, as you need room for the consumed paper to fall away.

 

I think the best idea would be a traditional thermite grenade, coupled with a oxygen cylinder (sized for demand) attached to the cabinet with a burst diaphragm made of a low melting temperature alloy. The alloy would have to be strong enough to deal with the static pressure of the oxygen, but burst when the temperature inside the enclosure reached around 250-300F (after grenade actuation). The oxygen jet could be aimed such that it spread the pages apart to facilitate quicker destruction. As the fire would already be underway, the chances of explosion versus an accelerated burn would be minimal. Anyone who's ever seen the "lighting the BBQ with LOX" video will understand this technique.

 

Nitrous oxide may actually be a better choice since it's a liquid under pressure, and the tank could be much smaller.

 

EDIT: Here's a link of the video (hosted on YouTube) -

In both situations, there is a lit cigarette inside the BBQ before the LOX is poured on. If the charcoal was saturated beforehand, it's probable that it would become explosive on ignition.

Edited October 3, 2008 by FrankRizzo

[crazyboy25]

Seriously your all thinking from a pyros viewpoint not a practical one. He said it has to work inside (that rules out thermite grenades or even fire). Try a 5 gallon bucket filled with warm water. Add the paper, let it sit for 30 seconds then it can be easily broken up with agitation and much of the ink will be washed away or unreadable.

[TheSidewinder]

Seems like we're attracting the old Admins back.

 

Good to see you post again, Rooster.

 

Just how fast is the "FAST" you mentioned? 30 seconds? 5 minutes? The time window may dictate the options, nearby personnel nonwithstanding.

[marks265]

I like the acid idea. If someone in, lets say the "black ops" division, wants to destroy papers in a file cabinet hanging in file folders it should work pretty quick. If the papers are all stacked tight I would have as many people as I could with as many paper shreaders on steroids and then dump acid on that in waste cans hanging out the window. That amount of paper might be portable enough to do really cool stuff to when moved! The papers stacked tightly (if so) is what bothers me and what type of trail are you leaving? Start a fire in an office building or run a paper shreaer in a back room?

[tentacles]

Ideally, you could have a solution that would destroy the toner/ink (toner more likely!) quickly, or solvize it to the point of unreadability. A custom ink could easily be designed to do something like this - or just toss the paper into a drum of the ink. The writing would still be there, technically... along with ink covering the rest of the paper. Stacks of paper have the potential problem of the fluid not reaching far past the edge of the paper.

[FrankRizzo]

Seriously your all thinking from a pyros viewpoint not a practical one. He said it has to work inside (that rules out thermite grenades or even fire). Try a 5 gallon bucket filled with warm water. Add the paper, let it sit for 30 seconds then it can be easily broken up with agitation and much of the ink will be washed away or unreadable.

 

 

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Sambo]

Is it possible to use a garden shredder, like the ones used for small trees etc.

Something like these would chew the paper up in seconds, you can get electric or petrol powered; you could then burn or dissolve shreddings with acid if necessary.

[Miech]

Dissolve it in warm/hot saturated sodium hydroxide solution and turn the paper into sugar. I once accidentally dissolved my homework when a bottle of 40% sodium hydroxide fell on it, and it actually turns the paper to some kind of slurry in seconds. Sodium hydroxide isn't too expensive and can easy be bought in big quantities, both as prills and as saturated solution. You'll probably have to stir a little to make the paper be destroyed completely. Edited October 4, 2008 by Miech

[Swede]

How about a strong organic solvent, such as TCE or MEK/acetone? I don't think there is an ink in this world that could stand being immersed in some of those. But there might still be a problem - after the ink is "dissolved", its location on the paper may still be evident under a microscope, and with enormous labor, the data might be recovered.

 

I know. A 5 gallon vat of HF. Dump the HF, then run for your lives. Anyone attempting to salvage the data will die a horrible death. This of course is a joke.

 

I like the digestion concept. Either sulfuric or lye, perhaps with additives. Look to the paper pulp and paper recycling industries, find out what they use to force the paper bonds to dissociate, and turn the paper into a soup. Potasium Chlorate is used currently in the paper industry by the thousands of tons for bleaching. Maybe a combination of acid/base, + a bleaching agent, would do the trick.

 

Interesting problem!

[tentacles]

Swede: There is at least one ink that can withstand it - Noodlers' Bulletproof inks. He'll pay you $4k if you can remove his ink from a standard paper cheque chemically (as in, not physically damaging the paper). Actually, it might be up to $6k this year.

[Rooster]

To clarify a little:

 

It is an EMERGENCY paper burner. Which means it will have to burn probable a whole room of paperstacks when the heat is on. Therefore, I would say 30 seconds would be an absolute maximum for the said amount. I am leaning towards the thermite grenade in a super-well insulated box thing, or acid/base pulpification. The paper will have to be destroyed, modern technology can find out what was printed on the page even if all ink is gone.

 

Can somebody try the pulpification with sulfuric acid and NaOH? I dont have my chems here, and like these solutions, less hazardous to people...

[asilentbob]

The main problem as I see it is surface area. A stack of paper doesn't exactly burn fast no matter how hot you get it.

 

I would say have a shreader/burning unit below a file holding unit... hit a switch and the saw blades beneath spin up, then a moment later files are automatically dropped in via some kind of trap door or something (the whole cabinet locks up so that its pretty much impossible to get into), the files are completely shreded exposing a whole lot of surface area, THEN the remains are burned in a high heat high oxygen atmosphere making sure that the vented fumes can't carry intact paper out via some kind of metal screen. (you could even have CO2 vent from a canister so that any escaping embers wouldn't be much of a fire starting threat, or hook the system up to the rooms sprinkler system to do much the same) Obviously you would need to have it set up with some kind of battery backup incase power is cut out... IE like the power backup system that some computer people have so that if power goes out you still have a few minutes to save documents and shut everything down.

 

And everything built out of or plated in some metal that will be very resistant to all this.

 

30 seconds might be attainable.

[Mumbles]

I am picturing some sort of giant blender filled with conc NaOH or sulfuric acid. I'd actually go with NaOH, as there will be a fire risk with the amount of paper this would entail. Perhaps a more dilute solution would still dissolve without charring. This would solve the surface area problem as everything would be circulating and break up the stacks and lift away the pulp.

[Bonny]

You might also be able to extend the available destruction time considerably if you rendered the area ineccessible for a period of time. I'm sure several critical minutes could be bought this way by some sort of barrier...gas or maybe flames that would exceed fire suit specs. Even a re-enforced (steel) physical barrier would buy precious time for the papers to be detroyed by some means.

[tentacles]

Clever (and cheap) on his part, to have all the R&D done for such a price. Much less than paying a lab do it.

 

Actually, no. He's had the ink tested at several forensic labs, and it was designed under contract at MIT. A number of people have tried the standard forgers' tricks, and it's consistently survived until the destruction of the paper.

 

It is an EMERGENCY paper burner. Which means it will have to burn probable a whole room of paperstacks when the heat is on. Therefore, I would say 30 seconds would be an absolute maximum for the said amount. I am leaning towards the thermite grenade in a super-well insulated box thing, or acid/base pulpification. The paper will have to be destroyed, modern technology can find out what was printed on the page even if all ink is gone.

 

Can somebody try the pulpification with sulfuric acid and NaOH? I dont have my chems here, and like these solutions, less hazardous to people...

 

30 seconds isn't very long for that kind of quantity. Anything that requires electricity is out - all they'd have to do is cut power and you're SOL. I believe what you have here is a problem that can't be solved, 30 seconds isn't enough time to move a room full of paper INTO a device/vat to destroy it, much less for the process to happen. Anything chemical, you would most likely have to keep hot or heat, to make it react quickly and violently enough.

 

Write everything on touch paper that's been well soaked in perc?

Edited October 6, 2008 by tentacles

[Miech]

I thought it was only 2 to 3 cubic feet of paper?

 

Anyway, I tried to dissolve a piece of paper in some nearly boiling saturated NaOH solution, and it took way longer than expected. After 5 minutes nothing seemed to happen, and it took almost an hour before I could see it disintegrate. After this time my test tube also begun to dissolve, so I diluted the reactants and flushed them through the sink. The paper was still readable, although it fell apart when taken out of the solution. It seems this way might take waaaay longer than desired, and may require a heat source once the NaOH is all dissolved.

[FrankRizzo]

SOP for document destruction when the enemy is at or near the facility is still a thermite grenade. My idea just makes that grenade more effective. ;-)

[FrKoNaLeaSh1010]

Wow rooster it is good to see you are still alive and well. I havnt heard from you in a couple of years and its good to see you posting again. I think as said already one of the quickest way would be in a steel drum with a thermite grenade or large amount of thermite. Acid would probably work but you would need either a very large quantity of acid or some type of agitation device so you can be sure the paper in the middle gets touched and thus dissolved by the acid. Also everyone is suggestiong sulfuric...yes it is cheap but is there no other acid that would work quicker perhaps like nitric or aqua regia? Also what about the possibility of just putting them into a large blender type device with black ink....wouldnt that cover up and destroy everything on the page or would it still be readable somehow? I am not too knowledgeable in forging documents and the like but blacking out the pages could work. I think the most practical would be to have some sort of box shaped the dimensions of the surface of the stack of paper that could be placed on top of the stack of paper that is put into a steel drum. Fill the rectangular box full of thermite making sure you would have a thick layer the size of the paper to make sure you evenly burn them all. I think this rectangle would work better than a cylindrical thermite grenade as it would have an area of molten slag fallout the dimensions of the paper making sure there are no small unburn fragments although chances are the heat and molten metal would probably burn up any extra fragments anyway. Also some sort of thermite device would probably be safer than having gallons of highly concentrated acid laying around because its kinda hard for thermite to go off on its own but a knocked over jug of sulfuric acid could cause a lot of problems. Just pouring gasoline on a stack is out of the question because as said earlier a thick stack of paper burns like a log from the outside in because of no air space. And to the person who said you cant use anything that burns indoors that is completely false you just need it to be protected and insulated. I would go with a thermite device or concentrated acid. Edited October 7, 2008 by FrKoNaLeaSh1010

[TheSidewinder]

Rooster, is the paper in question necessarily plain old "copy paper"?

 

2 to 3 cubic feet is a hell of a lot of paper!

 

A lot more than could be destroyed in 30 seconds without employing some pretty radical (and hazardous) method.