Choscura Posted April 20, 2006 Posted April 20, 2006 I've got a few basic questions about some (hopefully) simple things. first, what chemical is used in primers for modern bullets? I think I know how it's set off and I know the basics of reloading, but in a hypothetical situation where you can't go to wal-mart and buy primers, how are they made? second, whats the difference between black powder and smokeless powder, and how is the process different for making both of these? I know basically how black powder is made (from scratch, even, making your own saltpeter with charcoal/earth and a few other things). third, rocket powder. is this simply black powder thats in a differently shaped container, or is it a different type of compound entirely? whats a basic rocket powder and how is it made? thanks.
PyroJoe Posted April 20, 2006 Posted April 20, 2006 I recommend searching on this forum, or just using google and you could find out all the information you need. I am in a good mood though, so ill help you out. I don't know anything about primers, but to make them would probably be a dangerous process considering they are a made from a friction sensitive compound. Smokeless powder used in guns is an entirely different composition than black powder. Smokeless powder is made from nitrocellulose and some other stuff. It only works well when it is confined tightly. If you were to light a pile on the ground and compare it to a pile of black powder, the black powder would burn much faster in open air. There are 100's of different rocket fuels that are used for all kinds of different rockets. There are solid fuels and even liquid fuels are used. Usually for pyrotchnics though, black powder is used and is pressed into a tube with a clay nozzle. Another common fuel for model rocketry is Potassium Nitrate and sugar melted together. Again, before posting I would recommend searching as much as you can about the subject. Then if you can't find anything make a new thread. Just a warning, the rules are pretty strict around here.
teknix Posted April 20, 2006 Posted April 20, 2006 Smokeless powder:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder Black powder:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_powder Primers:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussion_cap Rockets:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_fuel
joe609 Posted April 21, 2006 Posted April 21, 2006 Most primers are lead styphnate, in the old days they used to be mercury fulminate. Smokeless powder come in different bases i.e. nitrocellulose mixed with nitroglycerine etc. how can potassium perchlorate on its own be a primer? thats what wikipedai says.
Mumbles Posted April 21, 2006 Posted April 21, 2006 About the perchlorate: Hate to burst your guys' bubble, but wikipedia is that all that reliable of a resource. Anyone can go and change it. I could go add "Steve is gay" to the primer article right now if I wanted, or change it to say that they use AP in commercial primers because they are L33t.
weknowpyro Posted April 21, 2006 Posted April 21, 2006 Lol good point but i have tried this and it only changes it on your screen and no one else can see it.
teknix Posted April 21, 2006 Posted April 21, 2006 Yeah I know wikipedia is a wiki that is open source. It is pretty good for general reference though. As for the perc I think they meant mixtures containing it. It doesnt say the perc was on it's own...it says mixutres containing perc the way I read it. "with ingredients such as lead azide or potassium perchlorate"...I know I've seen primer compositions with chlorate and RP or sulfur. It really depends on who the manufacturer is...I have a book that lists literally hundreds of primer compositions. Also I may have seen a primer comp that was a mix of lead azide and perc and some other things...probably to react with some left over corrosive products to make it a cleaner firing primer? Not sure but I can look it up later.
Choscura Posted April 23, 2006 Author Posted April 23, 2006 thanks for the help, guys. just for general reference, I do know a fair bit of this stuff already- not specific ingredients for specific compounds, etc, thats above me, but the compounds themselves I'm familiar with. most of my knowledge is about small arms (everything short of about 41 mm). most of my knowledge in this comes from reloading- but unfortunately, when you buy powder or primers, they generally don't come with recipes so you can make more. anyway, some more specific questions: for the primers, what are some basic contact explosives that are relatively stable (oxymoron...?) that can be melted and used in this capacity and remain stable for, oh, say, 2 or 3 years at the very least?and nobody say AP. second, the smokeless powder thing: I remember reading somewhere (don't ask me where, I read a lot) that the guy who discovered it was mixing up some different concoction of black powder and spilled it when he tried to hide it from his wife when she was coming up the stairs (he spilled it on a hot stove and wiped it off with one of her rags). maybe I remember this inaccurately, but it seems like regular black powder is in some way involved. if this is bullshit, tell me now so I don't do a wild goose chase for this. about rockets, is it possible to use a metal nozzle to launch the rocket inside a metal tube (assuming black powder), or will this simply go off like a bomb? thanks again. really glad I found this site.
Mephistos Minion Posted April 23, 2006 Posted April 23, 2006 I heard he spilled high conc HNO3 and wiped it up with his wife's apron or tea-towel or something similar.
Swany Posted April 23, 2006 Posted April 23, 2006 Nitrocellulose was discovered, IIRC, in the 1840's by a Swiss man who spilt conc. sulfuric and nitric acids. He wiped it up with his wife's apron, put it in front of the fire to dry (she was away), and it exploded. Dubious story at worst, and highly plausible at best.
Pyrohawk Posted April 24, 2006 Posted April 24, 2006 about rockets, is it possible to use a metal nozzle to launch the rocket inside a metal tube (assuming black powder), or will this simply go off like a bomb? thanks again. really glad I found this site. UHHHH.....what do you mean? I don't really understand your question....
Mumbles Posted April 24, 2006 Posted April 24, 2006 He wants to use a metal tube, with a metal nozzle. We wants to know if it will work, or if it will just blow up. I REALLY REALLY REALLY suggest against this. It may or may not explode, but it is not something I would chance. Cardboard tubes are easily rolled, and are much lighter than metal. Clay is also cheaper than metal, and the amount of clay you can get for the same price as metal will last much longer.
Choscura Posted April 24, 2006 Author Posted April 24, 2006 yes, but did I mention the metal is free, and would (if it doesn't explode) be recoverable? from what I've read (just around here and wiki and a few books), it seems like it would actually be just fine. I also think I remember something about a model rocketry group in arizona or something that uses metal rockets (they make their own everything, which I would be doing as well). also, don't worry too much about testing this stuff, I'd be doing it in a place where there's not too much risk of peripheral damage, and I'd be firing it off remotely with electric/radio detonators, probably from behind cover of some sort- or possibly with the rocket in a pit to keep any explosions from being an issue. if nobody here has done anything like this, I'll start with plain old cardboard and work up to that, but it seemed like a moderately interesting idea.
teknix Posted April 24, 2006 Posted April 24, 2006 Yeah you can make metal motors that work just fine and are reusable. Just load in the propellant grain and launch. http://members.aol.com/ricnakk/engine1.html But if you have never made a rocket before or have no clue what you are doing please don't make a metal motor. You can't start out at the top. Make some small cardboard bottle rockets and learn how they work and how they are made first then work your way up. You can't start out making something that will launch the space shuttle. Small is safe.
Boomer Posted April 24, 2006 Posted April 24, 2006 Metal rocket motors are absolutely no problem as long as you treat them as what they are: Pipe bombs! This said, back in the days we made metal motors for a science fair (with a teacher! Unthinkable today...). Alu pipes and nozzles melted even with KNSU. Construction steel held up for a few tests, but got weakened by glowing red hot. After we started using a better fuel (chlorate, wax, tar + Al powder) we needed 'special' steel. Paid 50 bucks for a 2" x 1.5' pipe with a 2" rod of a tungsten/chromium/vanadium alloy. Took us some time to find someone with a lathe to machine it, he used Ti carbide bits IIRC. Get cover!
Choscura Posted April 25, 2006 Author Posted April 25, 2006 did you try heat treating/tempering the steel? to do that, all you need to do is get the steel up to about 1500 degrees farenheit and quench it (evenly) in relatively cool water (mayber 50 degrees F at the coolest). then if you want temper it, get it up to about 700 degrees and quench it in oil (be careful you don't catch the oil on fire or splatter yourself!). it seems like that would last considerably longer than just raw cast-iron or stainless steel pipe, especially since if you have the resources (and this isn't expensive), you can heat treat it every time it needs it.
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