whitefox77 Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 For the record I checked with a mod before posting this, so no one freak out. After the recent shoot I did one of the spectators made the off hand comment of "There were none of the loud BOOM! ones I like." Personally I'm more into showy effects of light and color, and have never really been into salutes or whistle effects. In fact whistling rockets tend to just make me cringe. However, in the end it's not just about what I want, and the audience expects "The Big Boom". I know how to make the flash and have the materials, but am not familiar with the construction of the shell. Everything I do is small scale, my mortars are 1 7/8" tubes. I have several 1 1/2" paper shell halves that I'm planning on using for making aerial salutes. I figure that gives me plenty of room to past extra layers on the out sides to make the shells nice and strong. My big question is, how much flash should I load into these and is the flash doesn't fill the shell, what should I use for filler? I'm very hesitant to "fill em up and let em rip".
FrKoNaLeaSh1010 Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Well filling the whole shell with flash would be one hell of a sound but unneeded. I always made my aerial salutes in a cake fashion with an insert that is a tube full of flash with end caps. I never really saw the point of making a large shell with filler and a small flash bag in the middle because it is still going to make the same noise as a small shell or tube full of the same amount of flash. Asking how much flash to use and how much filler is kinda impossible as that is all up to you and is nothing but preference one how much you want. I usually keep it 30g or below of kclo4/al for my aerial salutes as anything over that is just wasteful in my opinion although i have made a couple larger ons but not many. So pretty much it all boils down to how loud you want it to be. I once made a cake of tubes with 3/4" Id as mortars and shot 9/16" ID (1/16th wall) tubes out of it that contained about 3-4g of flash and they were still quite loud. So you just need to think how loud you want it and how much you want to spend because flash is not the cheapest compound out there compared to stars for shells. And also my suggestion would be to not use a filler with a flash bag but just make the shell/tube a tube that will hold the flash only.
Seymour Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Why not combine your love for subtle effects and colour with your audiences desire for the big boom by making larger shells breaking them hard, and then letting your style come out in the glitter to purple effect changing stars? As long as your stars are hard you can get away with a lot of flash boosting them. I am thinking of something like 15g for a 4" shell, though you might consider that a bit excessive. If you are concerned with your stars being turned to dust, bind them with Gum Arabic and all your worries will become unnecessary. If you think that 4" is a large shell, I think its a smallish shell, and maybe there could be a compromise, 3" shells? Have fun!
tentacles Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 (edited) An even better idea, that would suit the equipment he has, would be to make some small italian style shells. Make up a shell "with bottom shot". If you're not familiar with italian style construction, there are some great tutorials over on passfire, or you could get the fulcanelli papers, etc. A shell that small you could probably get away with spiking with just about anything, butcher's twine if you can't get anything else. A small spool of cheap jute or sisal twine would also work very well. I could describe making an italian style shell if you want, but visuals are very helpful here. I did a bit of testing and with the 1.75" shells (in my case easter eggs) I didn't see much difference between 26g, 31g, 40g or even 50g. Mileage may vary but I used indian black and perc, also made a couple with chlorate + indian black. In my opinion, there's not a lot of difference until you get up to 3" cans or 4" salutes. Of course, they are nothing compared to a BIG bottom shot. Seymour: Breaking a 1.75" shell with 15g of flash is *certain* to blow the stars blind, and even if they're hard they will likely shatter. Edited September 19, 2008 by tentacles
whitefox77 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Posted September 19, 2008 Hmm... I don't think I want to go to larger shells just yet. For one I don't really have easy access to somewhere to shoot them off safely. Also, that'd disturb my parent's neighbors a lot more than the small shells I'm currently working with. I've though of making some double break cylinder shells before, but haven't been that ambitious. I was more of just thinking of mixing my salutes in with other effects.
tentacles Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Once you've made a couple of italian style shells, they only take a bit longer than pasting in a round shell. Assuming you're pasting them and not using plastic + tape or something quick (like a WASP). The bottom shot going off without any mortar firing for advance warning can be fun, too.
FrankRizzo Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 IMO, salutes are just as much part of a good fireworks show as any other type of effect. In fact, guys over on the other side of the pond have great daytime shows called Mascletas which feature *only* salute and whistle/salute effects timed to create complex rhythms..something I'd like to see in person during my lifetime. A nice loading for 1-7/8" shells is ~10g. That will give you plenty of effect, while allowing you to add both ingredients before pasting, and have them mix together during the handling you'll give them during the finishing process. A small section of blackmatch attached to the timefuse inside, extending the diameter of the shell will ensure ignition.
Richtee Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 IMO, salutes are just as much part of a good fireworks show as any other type of effect. In fact, guys over on the other side of the pond have great daytime shows called Mascletas which feature *only* salute and whistle/salute effects timed to create complex rhythms..something I'd like to see in person during my lifetime. A nice loading for 1-7/8" shells is ~10g. That will give you plenty of effect, while allowing you to add both ingredients before pasting, and have them mix together during the handling you'll give them during the finishing process. A small section of blackmatch attached to the timefuse inside, extending the diameter of the shell will ensure ignition. Huh...never heard of that Frank..sounds really cool! Another thing you can do, and conserve the powder is use 3-4 g or so, and a few grams of rice hulls. Will fill the shell, and STILL be plenty startling/impressive IMHO, especially at night.
optimus Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Huh...never heard of that Frank..sounds really cool! Get yourself over to the freakpyromaniacs forums and download some shows. You will not be dissapointed!
Richtee Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Get yourself over to the freakpyromaniacs forums and download some shows. You will not be dissapointed!Might you provice a couple specific links? Seems alot of it is in Dutch... I did notice that they have a UTube channel..any specific videos of this type of show you can recommend? Thanks!
rocket Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 In this one you get the basic idea, though its not the best example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfHz2oRh8K0
Richtee Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 In this one you get the basic idea, though its not the best example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfHz2oRh8K0 That one has been removed...but this one WOW!Day show OK what IS that effect on the sides of the "stadium"- Racing up and down... Salutes on QM?
Bonny Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 If you want some effect , make titanium salutes, rather than plain salutes. I regularly shoot 1" cannister salutes. I use 10g 70/30 perc/Al + 1g Ti for effect. I've also filled the same cannisters with granulated BP (10-20 mesh) plus 2 or 3 g of flash, not as loud, but saves on the perc and Al. I don't do any pasting, just glue in the visco "timefuse" and glue a plug in the other end.
Richtee Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 If you want some effect , make titanium salutes, rather than plain salutes. I regularly shoot 1" cannister salutes. I use 10g 70/30 perc/Al + 1g Ti for effect. I've also filled the same cannisters with granulated BP (10-20 mesh) plus 2 or 3 g of flash, not as loud, but saves on the perc and Al. I don't do any pasting, just glue in the visco "timefuse" and glue a plug in the other end. Ti seems difficult to come by these days...
FrankRizzo Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 That one has been removed...but this one WOW!Day show OK what IS that effect on the sides of the "stadium"- Racing up and down... Salutes on QM? Richtee, they use very accurate digital firing systems with e-matches in the salutes; the same type that demolition crews use to bring buildings down. 2smile.gif Here's one of my favorite Mascleta videos:http://tinyurl.com/22p36j The rhythms are awesome. -FrankR...admitted "thump junkie"
Richtee Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Richtee, they use very accurate digital firing systems with e-matches in the salutes; the same type that demolition crews use to bring buildings down. 2smile.gif Here's one of my favorite Mascleta videos:http://tinyurl.com/22p36j The rhythms are awesome. -FrankR...admitted "thump junkie" OK dang it. I had visions of ringing the driveway... I'd think the QM COULD be possible no? Albiet less precision perhaps but none the less a mobile fusilade. Guess I might have to play with it. That was WAYY cool!
Richtee Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 (edited) http://tinyurl.com/22p36j The rhythms are awesome. -FrankR...admitted "thump junkie" OMG... Neil Peart MIGHT have improved that... thanks Frank I got goose pimples! Edited September 19, 2008 by Richtee
Mumbles Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Those arn't ground salutes. They're suspended at least 2 feet off the ground They might have a place in professional pyrotechnics, but that still doesn't mean we're going to let you guys talk about m-80's and such. You can do an effect like that with quickmatch. You HAVE to use a bucket though. Otherwise the flash is liable to blow the quickmatch out if you can believe that. I've seen it happen. You can also tie knots around your quickmatch with string. Each one gives about a half second delay or so.
Richtee Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Those arn't ground salutes. They're suspended at least 2 feet off the ground They might have a place in professional pyrotechnics, but that still doesn't mean we're going to let you guys talk about m-80's and such. You can do an effect like that with quickmatch. You HAVE to use a bucket though. Otherwise the flash is liable to blow the quickmatch out if you can believe that. I've seen it happen. You can also tie knots around your quickmatch with string. Each one gives about a half second delay or so. I was thinking a primed short visco to the device. Sooo it breaks loose and falls. I have seen QM blown out too. And stars as well, of course. I'm not trying to push anything, but geez that was impressive... Zoooom...zoom... and boom boom all the way! Heck...a string of 1.4 whatever milligrams in that config would be cool!
optimus Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Might you provice a couple specific links? Seems alot of it is in Dutch... I did notice that they have a UTube channel..any specific videos of this type of show you can recommend? Thanks! I think the links now posted give you a fairly good idea I have wayy too much unsorted stuff downloaded from FPM, I have a few favourite displays/mascletas but it'd take me a while to trawl through... Some of the 'crema' stuff is also worth a watch, for instance: If you register at the FPM forums you get access to the movie database, which isn't particularly difficult to navigate. They also now send out email updates in English. There's a helluva lot of good stuff on there - many gigs of tasty european pyro madness Whitefox, very small salutes, if well contained, will give a very satisfactory noise. You don't have to mess with large amounts of flash. I'd suggest starting small and working up if you feel the need... 1/2"ID thick walled tubes with ~3g of fast flash and a nice glitter delay can be quite effective. And then there's always different rising effects to add a little more artistry, adding sponge Titanium, coloured flashes etc.
tentacles Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 Check out this video here, some great beraq shells in this display. Apparently this is timed to music, although it's filmed from too far away to hear.
Mumbles Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 I've always wondered that myself. It appears to be possibly some small red inserts. I had wondered if it was similar to a thing called a Rosette. It's a special granulated flash comp that makes a salute, and has streamers of sort. They're traditionally silver, but if you could in theory make them any color.
Photon_Junkie Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Whitefox,I couldn't agree with you more. One year for the 4th we shot over 800 shells, all of which were the standard 2". My audience is fairly close, but protected...so they are very near the action. It was awesome, we had everything a person could want. At the end of the show...everybody kept asking where the big booms were... Being a person that would rather see a sky full of dazzling blue stars and think the booms are unnecessary...I felt betrayed! So this year, I moved my crowed back, did five 5 gallon cremora fireballs, and a finale of 1.75 hand made salutes. Used only 5 grams of flash per shell... 20 shots. And even though I thought it was a waste of time and I plugged my ears, my audience said at the end..."I almost pissed my pants..."Which I guess is a compliment... I realize thats a long story just to say 5 grams... but my point is... less can be more. all my hard work making beautiful shells...and people scream and giggle about a mushroom cloud of coffee creamer....<sigh>
FrKoNaLeaSh1010 Posted September 22, 2008 Posted September 22, 2008 Yeah most people who havnt made flash would be very surprised when they first light off a 5g salute I know I was. I like those videos of the mascletta day time shoots. I have seen a couple different videos of daytime shoots and they all include aerial salutes of different sizes colored smoke comets/stars and whistles but its good to see how many different ways you can combine them to make the effects. Also that red effect you are talking about. It definitely appears to be some type of tube insert that either has granulated comp to a report or a delay comp almost like a matrix comet with chunks of micro stars in a bp plug type thing that leads to the report. I could be wrong but either way it is a very nice effect and wa quite bright for a daytime shoot.
jadesource Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 I had gotten away from doing any real salutes the last couple of years and am always amazed . People just want some big booms. but lately i have been getting into some very precise timed small salutes ala TOM REBLENCO style . One of the gentlman on passfire showed us some pictures and then told us to go to Wolter pyro tools and look at his fuse cutter so I made my own totally differant and much simpler. With a 1/32 inch incriments per turn cut ratio. I can make really neat drum beat effects but the coolest is still 20 in a circle one way followed by 20 the other way in 3/8ths inch tubes. Bill
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