Phthalocyanine Green as chlorine donor?

[Nitrato]

Hello Folks,

searching for 'phthalocyanine' in the forum didnt resulted in any thread, so I just started one =]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalocyanine_Green_G

 

I always wonder if woudnt this substance be of some usefulness in preparing some green or even blue coloured comp. since it have many chlorine atoms, beside one of copper.

I didnt have any laying around now, but where I live is very cheap and OTC at any hardware store, along with the blue version ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalocyanine_Blue_BN ) that I have found useful for blue smoke (although pretty pale and difficult to achieve in some tests since it give lots of hot slag that burns aways most of the dye).

 

The hardware products ("Pó Xadrez" brand):

http://www.poxadrez.com.br/uploads/pics/produtos_familia.jpg

(the other colours are most based in iron oxide.. Red (Fe2O3), Yellow (FeO), Black (FeO*Fe2O3 = Fe3O4), etc)

 

Im planing to buy some of this green dye as soon as possible just to see if works.

 

Have anyone tried with this before? Let me know!

 

Thanks

 

EDIT: the "pó xadrez" iron oxide products are very good to other pyro applications, like thermites =]

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK1kENayMBc

Edited August 4, 2008 by Nitrato

[Frozentech]

Hello Folks,

searching for 'phthalocyanine' in the forum didnt resulted in any thread, so I just started one =]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalocyanine_Green_G

 

I always wonder if woudnt this substance be of some usefulness in preparing some green or even blue coloured comp. since it have many chlorine atoms, beside one of copper.

I didnt have any laying around now, but where I live is very cheap and OTC at any hardware store, along with the blue version ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalocyanine_Blue_BN ) that I have found useful for blue smoke (although pretty pale and difficult to achieve in some tests since it give lots of hot slag that burns aways most of the dye).

 

No idea about Phthalocyanine as a chlorine donor, but Shimizu references Phthalocyanine Blue as color agent for blue smokes, using 30-35% dye, 20% lactose as fuel, and Potassium chlorate as the oxidizer. I am guessing that your dye would be feasible for green smokes as well. Any colored smoke using organic dyes will require some fiddling with the comp, as well as the generator container, to limit flame, and lower combustion temps, so the dyes volatilize and not burn up.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Frozentech

[TheSidewinder]

As an aside, Nitrato, I'm curious about the cost of those Dyes?

 

The ones I've been able to price locally made me damn near faint when I saw how much they wanted for them.

[Nitrato]

No idea about Phthalocyanine as a chlorine donor, but Shimizu references Phthalocyanine Blue as color agent for blue smokes, using 30-35% dye, 20% lactose as fuel, and Potassium chlorate as the oxidizer. I am guessing that your dye would be feasible for green smokes as well. Any colored smoke using organic dyes will require some fiddling with the comp, as well as the generator container, to limit flame, and lower combustion temps, so the dyes volatilize and not burn up.

 

Do you mean this book: deleted ?

Just find on the web. Anyway thank you for the formula. I will surely try it.

The very first time (long ago) that I played with this stuff I become very suspicious of copper presence since it gives a nice green colour in the flame. That was confirmed when I did a quick search on the google.

I tried to do the quick test with it that I found in http://student.dei.uc.pt/~peter/manual/pag10.htm (not in english -very good article I have found about smoke production) where a sample on a hot surface that sublimes and give a 'smoke' with respective color is good as smoke precursor; but I found phthalocyanine didnt resulted in any noticeable smoke, even with relatively strong heating. But it give some blue smoke when mixed with regular KNO3/sucrose. Weird . This same test give me instant results with candle dye that unfortunately are MUCH more expensive for pyro purposes.

 

EDIT: Im fearing that the green version woulnd be so nice in smoke comps, since depending of the temperature of the composition it can (?) breakdown to nasty organic-chlorine chems in the smoke that are not know to be very benign. But Im not sure.. =[

 

As an aside, Nitrato, I'm curious about the cost of those Dyes?

 

The ones I've been able to price locally made me damn near faint when I saw how much they wanted for them.

 

 

A small box with 250g of any of these dyes costs here about R$ 5,00 that is anything between US$ 2,50 - 3,00 ... The 500g Box is about R$ 7,00 - 8,00

BTW the phthalo-dye is very voluminous.

 

2° EDIT: BTW, you is totally right. Here this phthalocyanine dye is the one that I was able to found OTC that are not very expensive. All other kinds of 'interesting' organic dye are VERY expensive.

WHY MOST DYES ARE SO F**** EXPENSIVE?

 

3° EDIT (sorry =[ ): I almost forgot to give the following link , wherein this blue phthalo dye can be made at home, but with some effort and risks: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthr...age=1#pid123316

Edited August 4, 2008 by Mumbles

[Mumbles]

You might want to try to find a material data sheet on those dyes. For the prices you quote, it seems pretty low to be devoid of filler. All the MSDS I have been able to find were either chromium based, or were liquid based. I couldn't find an equivalent type of product to look up.

 

Also, I deleted that link. We dont promote literature piracy around here.

[Nitrato]

You might want to try to find a material data sheet on those dyes. For the prices you quote, it seems pretty low to be devoid of filler. All the MSDS I have been able to find were either chromium based, or were liquid based. I couldn't find an equivalent type of product to look up.

 

Also, I deleted that link. We dont promote literature piracy around here.

 

I dont know if that have any filler material and the prices of comercial 'pure' phthalocyanine. The label only claims be "phthalocyanine". I will call the consumer service of the product latter to ask this (now its night here), since they appear to dont have any kind of online sheet..

 

Also, Mumbles, sorry for that link =( , I didnt knew that (actually I have found it on another pyro forum)..

[Arthur]

C32 H18 N8 is phthalocyanine Where is the chlorine you think it will donate? CAS number 574-93-6 search www.emolecules.com/ for more details.

 

As a dye for in flame sublimation then it may be successful as a smoke colourant. Coloured smokes STAIN EVERYTHING.

[Nitrato]

C32 H18 N8 is phthalocyanine Where is the chlorine you think it will donate? CAS number 574-93-6 search www.emolecules.com/ for more details.

 

As a dye for in flame sublimation then it may be successful as a smoke colourant. Coloured smokes STAIN EVERYTHING.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Phthalo...ine_Green_G.png , from the very first link. Green Phthalo dye; we are talking about both green and blue (this last with no chlorine content) in this thread, more especifically, my original question was directed to possible use of green phthalo in pyro.

 

Maybe this would not donate any chlorine since most links I have seen claims that it is a very stable substance towards heat.. Probably green phthalo would not be very useful in blue stars compositions but be still useful in green ones using compositions with high heat output needed to break down the molecules (e.g. using Al / MgAl in the comp.). Just a guess.

 

About blue stuff: A very interesting thing I did read moments ago about blue phthalo in this source mentioned by Frozentech (Shimizu) is that this material has a very high sublimation point (~500°C), much higher than most pyro dyes. So that was the most realiable reason which my test with this material using a steel plate and simple alcohol flame didnt gave any results. Thus the smoke comp. using it needs to be pretty hot (comparing with usual coloured smoke mix) to give goods results ('cobalt blue'). Anything below this temp. will give white smoke instead ; but he states that (p. 82), is the KClO3 that is 30-35% , both less than 30% and more than 35% will give nothing; 20% is lactose, the rest being the phthalo dye.

Also, when combined with ammonium perchlorate, it will give blue colour. Damn thing that I dont have any kind of perchlorate

Edited August 5, 2008 by Nitrato

[Nitrato]

Hello again.

 

I still dont have the green phthalo but about 3 days ago I've tried the following formula with blue one:

 

~20g KClO3

~10g Lactose

~25g Blue Phthalo

 

that is slight more than the 35% KClO3 version on shimizu. Mixed thoroughly (fine powdered chlorate and lactose first - diaper method - then this with phthalo dye - diaper method and plastic spoon mixed) and placed in a small thin plastic sheet that I just assembled the corners with a wire to form a small bag.

Ive used a plain small metal can with a respective metal lid (with some holes), but I forgot to reinforce the lid in its place with the wire. For the ignition a simple black match was used (touching the external part of plastic bag but not the comp).

All the device was assembled right before use, since I dont wanted to store this chlorate stuff, especially with incompatible blackmatch near it..

This resulted in a partial sucess, since it gives nice blue smoke at first but after about 3-4 seconds the lid just was pushed by the smoke and all become exposed to fresh air, giving flames and almost white smoke

 

2 days ago I tried this formula:

 

~ 30g KClO3

~ 20g Lactose

~ 50g Blue Phthalo

 

Roughly 30% KClO3 (minimum reported by Shimizu). Mixed thoroughly (fine powdered chlorate and lactose first - diaper method - then this with phthalo dye - diaper method and plastic spoon mixed) , divided the comp. in two 50g amounts and placed one of each in a small thin plastic sheet that I just assembled the corners with a wire to form a small bag, resulting in two small 50g bags.

 

The metal can was previously slight modified both to the lid stay in place and to be more heat insulating (helping still more of the dye to sublime outside of the can). Also,this will help to protect most of the metal can against oxidation.

 

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/tnitrato/phthalodye_smoke.jpg

 

I guess it would be better if I had used betonite clay instead of plaster, but I hate to powder the kitty litter granules (still dont have my ball mill), so used plaster.

 

The modified can/lid, bag of the comp. and the black match were stored, but assembled yesterday accordingly with the above pic (after left the plaster on the can to partially dry for about one day).

 

The result was totally amazing!!!!!! My first really sucessfull coloured smoke! Unfortunatelly I dont have a camera but I can confirm by and re-confirm by my own word what I said. Hope someone else try it and post the results.

 

The leftover contents of the device (dross) can just be poured out and the metal can reused (assembled right before using it)..

 

Today I will try the other bag of the comp. and post results here (since it just does not exist other phthalo thread, AFAIK). Also lactose/sucrose - KNO3 comps will be tried and compared.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Nitrato

[jacob]

Nitrato,

 

That sounds awesome! cheap colored smoke that works.

 

Now I'm gonna have to find a source for Phthalocyanine Blue, what is it used to color?, concrete perhaps?

[Arthur]

There were some cheaper dyes in the UK sold specifically for producing smoke for civil aerobatics, Can you searc for like in your country?

 

http://www.dyes.com/Default.html as a sterter

[Nitrato]

First, sorry profusely, dudes, for the all time I was out.. I was very busy in the school and didnt have plenty of time to do the experiments I would like to perform here. But I have some news. The bad news is that I still dont got my Green phthalo (I know you are thinking "Arghhh Fucking cheap and lazy man!!!" or something similair ) from the local hardware store but the good news is that a friend of mine recently did a visit to me (along with his camera) and so, we recorded the test. I give you some photos of my 3rd test with the composition (the same ratios and method above). There is no photo of the actual test, but there is a video (the bad news is that my friend is still working on it; then I will upload to youtube and show to all of you).

 

 

Nitrato,

 

That sounds awesome! cheap colored smoke that works.

 

Now I'm gonna have to find a source for Phthalocyanine Blue, what is it used to color?, concrete perhaps?

 

Yes. All of 'pó xadrez' products reported are mainly used in concrete colouring. Probably you may find another brand that use the same stuff.

 

 

There were some cheaper dyes in the UK sold specifically for producing smoke for civil aerobatics, Can you searc for like in your country?

 

http://www.dyes.com/Default.html as a sterter

 

Oh, UK is too distant from here

 

I dont know any other cheaper dye than this, although I cant figure out in specific dyes stores. In fact, I never encountered one here. Most I know are online and the dyes are not very cheap. Also, I dont like online purchasing.

 

So, the photos:

(note that the container is 'dirty' outside and blue inside... That was because I used it in previous tests)..

 

 

The container:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/tnitrato/P9060027.jpg

 

Another view:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/tnitrato/P9060026.jpg

 

Materials assembled (Blackmatch, 50g bag of the composition (30% KClO3, 20% lactose, 50% blue phthalo) and the container):

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/tnitrato/P9060034.jpg

 

Another view:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/tnitrato/P9060035.jpg

 

Bag of composition was opened somewhat and put inside the container:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/tnitrato/P9060036.jpg

 

The lid was put and attached with a thick wire:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/tnitrato/P9060037.jpg

 

The BlackMatch was then put deep through the biggest hole in the lid:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/tnitrato/P9060038.jpg

 

Then after the funniest moment (calm guys, as I stated, the video is being edited by my friend)

 

The dross:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/tnitrato/P9060041.jpg

Edited September 7, 2008 by Nitrato

[pyrogeorge]

Nitrato can you upload a video?

Also where can i found this dye?Looks nice and easy to make,also how does it cost?

[Nitrato]

Nitrato can you upload a video?

Also where can i found this dye?Looks nice and easy to make,also how does it cost?

 

Yah The preliminary video (without any kind of edition):

 

 

My friend still dont give me the edited video, but I will call him later.

Looking the video, I realized that some mistakes were did =[ .. Unfortunatelly this time I didnt sealed properly the lid, so it leaked a bit, giving a less vigorous smoke column (specially at first) ; also, the recipiente was in the shadows (direct exposing to the sun would gave a better effect). My friend also did the mistake of turning the camera the wrong way, so the video was not straight.. But Im happy with this 50g mix. Next times it would be somewhat bigger =]

 

pipipi, read the previous posts.. That dye is a cement colouring that I found on hardware stores. Maybe that is not avaliable to you, since I do live in other country (as any of you can suspect reading my poor english =] )

Edited September 9, 2008 by Nitrato

[pyrogeorge]

Nice Nitrato..also i like your glove,

I read the previous post but i don't know what is Xardez,or what kind of dye is..because i live in another country too..

So this dye use to colour the cement,i try to find..

[Nitrato]

Nice Nitrato..also i like your glove,

I read the previous post but i don't know what is Xardez,or what kind of dye is..because i live in another country too..

So this dye use to colour the cement,i try to find..

 

Thank you =]

 

This video wasnt so great because of the abovementioned problems, but IMHO is still a good video to give not only to you people but to me also more interest in test other comps than usual, preferentially with more OTC reagents possible =)

 

ps.: that glove also isnt so great =] is the cheapest that I use (many times cheaper than latex gloves, that I let for less messing things; in other words, usually I use latex to do chemical experiments and the plastic one for dirty things)

Edited September 9, 2008 by Nitrato

[pyrogeorge]

Do you know if work with KClO4 or not?

[Mumbles]

Perchlorates generally burn too hot, and thus carbonize the dye agent instead of vaporizing it. You might get lucky though. I've often wondered if you could simply cool the flame with carbonates to achieve success with perchlorates.

[Nitrato]

Yeah.. Mumbles said it all..

 

Just adding: even KNO3 will work, but is much poorer performance (it does not work with lactose monohydrate; at least in my experiments.. I tried several changes, but it work only with plain sucrose).. Many efforts of other people were did to get a good coloured comp that uses KNO3 as oxidant, but I think all of these dont work properly or just dont work at all. There is a video on youtube that uses MELTED (oh god!) KNO3/sucrose and a 'misterious' dye.. all giving a excellent orange smoke...Probably many of you already looked it. IMHO thats pure bullshit.

[FrankRizzo]

There is a video on youtube that uses MELTED (oh god!) KNO3/sucrose and a 'misterious' dye.. all giving a excellent orange smoke...Probably many of you already looked it. IMHO thats pure bullshit.

 

Yes, it's pure bullshit. The video is made by "shooting eggs productions", the same guy who has made thousands of dollars making videos on Metacafe. He's a smart dude, and adds just enough science so that guys who've got a "cookbook chemistry" education think they might be legitimate. His glowing tomato and binary explosive videos both created quite a stir. It's entertainment, nothing more.

[pyrogeorge]

Nitrato

Did you test another colour?

[pyrogeorge]

any update??

[Nitrato]

Nitrato

Did you test another colour?

 

pipipi, look your PM inbox.

 

pipipi, at the moment Im trying to find a yellow dye used to colour wood (a friend from another forum has used it), but still today Im trying to find at least one hardware store that sell that dye.. Still not sucess =[

Edited October 16, 2008 by Nitrato

[pyrogeorge]

Hi Nitrato,

Finally i found the topic after searching a lot.

I made a batch today with green cement dye,but not the same brand as your,but no coloured smoke appeared..

i will try to find the same brand cement dye and i will try again.

[Nitrato]

Hello PyroGeorge, glad you found this dye and is experimenting but sad with your results. Do not give up!

Are you sure the dye is phthalocyanine (some pottery supplies carry Cr2O3 that is about as green as phthalo, but Im unsure they also use it for cement colouring though.. Mumbles said earlier in this thread that he found some chromium based dye)? Did you used with lactose and KClO3 too?

 

Im back to the city where I make my (pyro)experiments, but right now is night (about midnight), I will try the procedure tomorrow with another tests and will take some pictures of it to you APC folks. I dont tried the green phthalo for smoke, I would rather try it for colour mix, but will try small amounts to smoke production anyway too.

 

Cheers!

Edited January 29, 2012 by Nitrato