FrankRizzo Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 As I mentioned earlier, powdered bentonite clay is also great for protecting the Mg/Al. Bentonite doesn't provide the same shielding effect that powdered charcoal does. The warming charcoal will release gases and compete with the magnesium for the available oxygen. Sulfure is also a poor choice since it will contaminate your end product. It will stink every time you open the container.
KruseMissile Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Bentonite doesn't provide the same shielding effect that powdered charcoal does. The warming charcoal will release gases and compete with the magnesium for the available oxygen. Sulfure is also a poor choice since it will contaminate your end product. It will stink every time you open the container. I've heard this too. I want to try to make Mg/Al some time, but i think it will be a while(get supplies and all).
andyboy Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Bentonite doesn't provide the same shielding effect that powdered charcoal does. The warming charcoal will release gases and compete with the magnesium for the available oxygen. Sulfure is also a poor choice since it will contaminate your end product. It will stink every time you open the container. Well, why would the bentonite need to compete with the Mg for avaliable oxygen when there will be no avaliable oxygen when using bentonite clay?
FrankRizzo Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Well, why would the bentonite need to compete with the Mg for avaliable oxygen when there will be no available oxygen when using bentonite clay? The powdered bentonite is about as suffocating from a permeability aspect as the powdered charcoal. The charocal has the added effect of off-gasssing and creating a reducing atmosphere. You'll get a thicker "spongy" oxidized layer with bentonite.
Bonny Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I've never tried bentonite, but the charcoal works very well. There is a fellow (in the UK I believe) that pours his MgAl into a large bucket of water, yielding small brittle "ingots". Seems like a good way to get nasty burns but it obviously works for him.
EEguy Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I've never tried bentonite, but the charcoal works very well. There is a fellow (in the UK I believe) that pours his MgAl into a large bucket of water, yielding small brittle "ingots". Seems like a good way to get nasty burns but it obviously works for him. That sounds crazy!
dagabu Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 That sounds crazy! Think metal funnel the completely covers the opening to the drum of water, the molten liquid is poured in slowly, the steam boils out around the funnel harmlessly, the drops and spheres and rods of Mg/Al fall to the bottom and are ready for the meat grinder. Easier to handle, easier to grind, more potential for corrosion. It is a fantastic way to make Mg/Al and it keeps the dust down and helps get a reaction going! You have to be careful doing it this way, dry it fast an thoroughly before grinding it.
andyboy Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 The powdered bentonite is about as suffocating from a permeability aspect as the powdered charcoal. The charocal has the added effect of off-gassing and creating a reducing atmosphere. You'll get a thicker "spongy" oxidized layer with bentonite. I tried both ways and I never experienced the "spongy" layer when using bentonite, is that theory on your part or did you experience this yourself?
xetap Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 I don't know about pouring molten metal of any type into water- but if you decide this method is for you, please take the obvious necessary precautions and use a DEEP, large container that has no chance of boiling and/or spewing metal and steam. I could see using water to rapidly cool an ingot to cause it to fracture but magnalium is so brittle to begin with that I just do not see a return on the hazards of pouring it into water- with whatever funnels, etc. you might rig up.
dagabu Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 (edited) I don't know about pouring molten metal of any type into water- but if you decide this method is for you, please take the obvious necessary precautions and use a DEEP, large container that has no chance of boiling and/or spewing metal and steam. I could see using water to rapidly cool an ingot to cause it to fracture but magnalium is so brittle to begin with that I just do not see a return on the hazards of pouring it into water- with whatever funnels, etc. you might rig up. That's the way it done commercially, though I use the word 'commercially' a little loosely Another way would to form it into pellets like a shot tower. The problem with breaking up chunks is the mess and contamination it creates. Its easy to drop it in water from a height of 10 feet and have NO risk of exposure to heat at all. Edited January 23, 2010 by dagabu
xetap Posted January 24, 2010 Posted January 24, 2010 I hesitate to comment on dropping molten metal 10 feet (a ladder, or out a second story window? Dig a 10 foot deep hole?) into water- which is probably not what you meant- but IS what other beginning pyros might take it as. The ingots break up easily. Wrapping it in an old towel and hitting it w/a hammer suffices.
Bonny Posted January 24, 2010 Posted January 24, 2010 I hesitate to comment on dropping molten metal 10 feet (a ladder, or out a second story window? Dig a 10 foot deep hole?) into water- which is probably not what you meant- but IS what other beginning pyros might take it as. The ingots break up easily. Wrapping it in an old towel and hitting it w/a hammer suffices. On my next batch I think I'm going to try a meat grinder. Until now, I just put it into a coffee can with a steel bar to crush. I also put a plastic bag over the top to keep the materail in. Afetr that it goes into the coffee grinder or ballmill.
xetap Posted January 24, 2010 Posted January 24, 2010 I also use a meat grinder. Mine was bought at the local thrift store for $3.00.
Twotails Posted January 24, 2010 Posted January 24, 2010 I think thats the Exact grinder i have(in picture)!
dagabu Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 I hesitate to comment on dropping molten metal 10 feet (a ladder, or out a second story window? Dig a 10 foot deep hole?) into water- which is probably not what you meant- but IS what other beginning pyros might take it as. The ingots break up easily. Wrapping it in an old towel and hitting it w/a hammer suffices. The crucible is placed above the quench tank and the pour is controlled so that the molten metal comes out in a small stream and the droplets are quenched in the water. Yes, that is what I meant. There doesn't have to be a ladder or window involved.
xetap Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) The crucible is placed above the quench tank and the pour is controlled so that the molten metal comes out in a small stream and the droplets are quenched in the water. Yes, that is what I meant. There doesn't have to be a ladder or window involved.There need to be SOME way to get the molten metal 10' above the water. If not a ladder or out the window, what- a scaffold? Were talking about hobby production here- not mass production on a commercial scale. My point is this- there is ZERO need in complicating a fairly straightforward procedure w/anything of the sort. There's no advantage, as far as I can tell, over simply breaking the ingot up w/a hammer! And plenty of disadvantages in trying to manipulate a cauldron of molten metal ten feet in the air to pour it into water- for no good reason other than to say you did it. Magnalium is very brittle- just use a hammer, etc. and save the complicated procedures for something that actually requires them. EDIT- I find I'm repeating myself- this is my last comment on this. Edited January 25, 2010 by xetap
Twotails Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 Who says it need be 10ft virtical? you could have a shute that carries the molten metal from crucible and leading to the quench tank. but then you run the risk of loseing product wile it's travling down the shute.Just a thought.
dagabu Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 Were talking about hobby production here- not mass production on a commercial scale. One of the most frequently phrases that is repeated in professional circles is, "There is more then one way to skin a cat." I am disappointed that I keep hearing the phrase "Were talking about hobby production here- not mass production on a commercial scale." I am ordering 50,000 cap plugs to help out other aspiring hobbyists with timed reports, I make and sell ball mill jars for a few bucks above my cost and I buy my supplies from other pyros and I am a hobbyist, not a commercial reseller and I do what i do so people like you can do what you do for an affordable price. Mg/Al can be made any way you choose, why demand that we all do it your way? What makes your way better? I use a stainless steel cocktail shaker placed in a charcoal starter, I use mica to flux the mix and charcoal to keep the O2 from getting to the molten metals. I pour the metal from a concrete deck to a water filled drum and let it collect on the bottom. Is it wrong because you don't like it, because you cant do it because you haven't tried it? Personally, I have yet to do most of what is involved in display fireworks and don't comment unless I have done the activity many times and feel I have something to contribute. Pouring into water from a distance is optimal for quenching the Mg/Al so that -200 mesh can be made with few problems and no hammering. D
xetap Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) I had said I was through w/this, but I digress. I'm obliged to respond because my statements have been misrepresented. I cannot and will not idly sit by and let that happen. I made the comment: "I don't know about pouring molten metal of any type into water- but if you decide this method is for you, please take the obvious necessary precautions and use a DEEP, large container that has no chance of boiling and/or spewing metal and steam."initially because the idea of anyone who read your post thinking that it was something they wanted to try, to be careful. From that simple statement, you've attempted to turn this into something it's not. Safety comes before ego. IMO, (again- repeating myself) there's no good reason to pour magnalium into water- be it from one or one hundred feet in the air. It creates unnecessary hazards, IMHO- especially to someone who's never handled molten metal- compared to letting it cool in situ, wrapping it and hammering away. It is not a matter of liking or not liking that way of cooling magnalium. It is simply a matter of SAFETY. In fact, I like Bonny's idea of crushing magnalium by using his "butter churn" method- simple, effective, SAFE. If anyone else wants to pour molten metal ten feet into water, fine- just use precautions as you move around carrying molten metal, don't try to climb a latter w/molten metal, open all the doors between the place where the metal is melted to where you're going to pour (if any), wear heavy duty eye, hand, foot, torso, arm and leg protection if (when?) you spill it, etc. Things, had YOU mentioned from the beginning, would have entirely precluded me even mentioning the safety concerns in the first place. Now, sensible folks will have this safety equipment on anyway, but IMO it is doubly required if you plan on moving about w/molten metal over a distance, pouring it, etc. BTW, I've made about 12 pounds total, so it's not like I'm an expert- but it's also not like I have no experience, either. That said, where in hell do you get that I "demanded" (or even suggested) that ANYTHING need be done "my way", or that my way was better? Do not put words in my mouth... Despite your comment, "disappointed that I keep hearing the phrase "Were talking about hobby production here- not mass production on a commercial scale."", the simple fact is we ARE talking about hobby production, not mass production on a commercial scale!!! The name of this forum is The Amateur Pyrotechnics and Chemistry Forum, after all. Most all the folks reading this thread have no intention of going into mass production, and if they DID, I'd hope they'd seek out the proper methods from within that industry, and not all from an armature fireworks/chemistry site- despite the wealth of very intelligent, resourceful members here- present company included. Barring any more misquotes, I'm done, I believe. Thanks for your time. Edited January 25, 2010 by xetap
dagabu Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 Xetap needs nap I think The point being that hobbyist have many venues to create the materials they desire and whether the Mg/Al is quenched, ingot'd, or whatever your personal idea is, just follow the safety procedures and have fun. If you try it, you will find that a standard metal rain barrel with a suitable metal cap will protect you from the steam and makes for instantly reducible materials. *Oh, when you encounter people that get all bent out of shape for being disagreed with, it usually means that they are arrogant and inflexible. That said, if there are others out there that feel the risks for quenching outweigh the rewards, please post your opinion and I will gladly recant. Just remember, quenching is the standard fair for hardening metals of all kinds, AMATEUR hobbyists that cast bullets, work iron, smith metals, gunsmith, etc all quench. It's too bad that there are people that are brilliant, great builders, knowledgeable and are teachers of us all that fall into the trap of putting blinders on to justify their method as the best or safest or whatever the defense is. I like being wrong, I learn and grow. I can accept that.
FrankRizzo Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) Tentacles and I have have done the method whereby the molten metal is poured into water. It works great; you end up with little spongy chunks similar to coral. However, you want to minimize the amount of time the stream of molten metal is exposed to the air, as it will catch fire quite readily. Pouring it from 10ft would likely result in much more mixed oxides in the final product. Obviously, full body protection is a good idea if you're going to attempt this. Andyboy: Yes, I've tried it; I used ball milled kitty litter. The clay will also contaminate the magnalium with sodium ions, making it useless for stars. Tentacles and I have tried a few different things, and charcoal was ideal. But, use whatever you like. Edited January 25, 2010 by FrankRizzo
dagabu Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 Tentacles and I have have done the method whereby the molten metal is poured into water. It works great; you end up with little spongy chunks similar to coral. However, you want to minimize the amount of time the stream of molten metal is exposed to the air, as it will catch fire quite readily. Pouring it from 10ft would likely result in much more mixed oxides in the final product. Obviously, full body protection is a good idea if you're going to attempt this. Andyboy: Yes, I've tried it; I used ball milled kitty litter. The clay will also contaminate the magnalium with sodium ions, making it useless for stars. Tentacles and I have tried a few different things, and charcoal was ideal. But, use whatever you like. Good point! I will get closer to the barrel next time. I did have one flare up but I thought that was because I had the metal too hot. It was August, right after PGI where I saw the two guys out by the C-line making it.
andyboy Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 Andyboy: The clay will also contaminate the magnalium with sodium ions, making it useless for stars. That little comment would have been enough and we wouldn't even have needed to discuss any more. Thank's for the heads up and I'm switching to charcoal.
gordohigh Posted January 29, 2010 Posted January 29, 2010 I used clay/kitty litter and noticed no ill effects with my material I rendered from the melt, although I wire brushed all I could of the kitty litter/slag off . I would love to read/learn about the effects of the sodium ion, any links available to read? I hate to use my charcoal but looks like I might if this is true.
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