Ebay Aluminum

[tbland]

A few months ago i bought a pound of 1000 mesh aluminum off of ebay (listed as 99.99% pure Al). I had 4 oz of dark german powder but the ebay item was so cheap i couldn't resist! So when i got it i immediately mixed up some 70/30 flash powder to compare to my german dark. The first thing i noticed was the aluminum from ebay was quite abit lighter in color, but they were both extremely high mesh. After mixing up 10 grams of each i tried igniting a gram to compare, and the new stuff would not ignite. The german dark did just fine, so i guess my KClO4 is fine, maybe it's my new aluminum? I made another batch of 20 grams, and it didn't work either. After awhile i got frustrated and held a torch to it for awhile; it started to glow and it threw a few sparks, but it would not ignite (i guess that's probably good for my hand's sake).

 

So, my question:

I'm wondering if maybe it's coated for safety reasons? I know that some kno3 fertilizer is now coated to stop pyrotechnic use, i'm wondering since this came from ebay if it's the same thing. I have put about 20 grams of the powder in with some water and made a slurry... hoping for something to happen, i guess i'm not sure what.

Do you guys have any suggestions on what i could do with this stuff to get it to work, or how i should try to troubleshoot the problem?

How can an element be different from another element?! They listed it as 99.99% pure.

 

 

Thanks - Travis

[al93535]

What you have there is spherical aluminum powder. It will work great in glitters, but it wont do much as the main fuel source in flash.You can mix some of the german with the new aluminum to get a slower but usable flash.

 

Sorry, ebay people rip others off and the al sounds good at 1000 mesh, but its the wrong particle shape.

[tbland]

Darn! Well thanks. I knew spherical would burn slower since it has less surface area but i didn't realize how bad it was. I'll try mixing it with some German, thanks!

[Gunzway]

They coat kno3 fertilizers so it cannot be used for pyrotechnics?

I wonder how they do that without effecting some other uses for kno3.

Example: Silver strip solution and other stuff.

[Swede]

Travis, was this the "20 lb for $165" guy? Would you mind telling us (or PM me if you are not comfortable) who the seller is? I don't think it's possible to get good flake Al of the correct mesh for less than about $15/lb, more like $20/lb, unless you are buying drums.

 

At least the Al will still be useable for glitter and such.

[tbland]

@Gunzway

Well about a year ago i was looking for sources of kno3 before i bought it from unitednuclear. I went to a local farm store and got what the bag said was kno3 fertilizer. I suppose the stuff i got could have been a poor sample, but when i read up on it i found out that most of the potassium nitrate fertilizer is coated in something to keep stuff like the McVeigh bombing from happening again.

 

@Swede

I actually bought the stuff with a friend and we used his account. I can't find the username of the guy right now, but i only bought a pound. (it was a good deal in comparison to the 14 dollars for 4 oz of german dark from united nuclear, or whatever crazy amount they charged.) They listed it as either 1000 or 1400 mesh aluminum and advertised, i believe, as good for pyrotechnic uses, but not specifically flash powder. I'm sure it's spherical but i don't think they listed it one way or the other. I'll try to find the seller and let you know if it's the same guy.

Where do you get good flake for 20 a pound? What seller?

 

 

 

 

AND...

so since i hadn't messed around with the stuff since i bought it, i tried some again tonight. I made some batches changing the ratio in 10% incriments... and i got it all the way to 60% Al and 40% KClO4... which seemed to provide the fastest burn.

It's strange though, the 50/50 would burn well too, but it was extremely hard to ignite. I put a gram in a folded up piece of newspaper. The paper would burn all around the powder and not ignite it, i had to use a torch to get the outside sparkling, and then that would ignite the rest of it to a flash.

Is there a basic chemistry thing i'm missing here? Less surface area, so i add more fuel??? And why such a high ignition temperature?

 

I think i need to keep playing around because everything is pretty inconsistent right now. I'll be glad to take any suggestions though.( I haven't tried adding any german yet, when i got some of it to actually flash i figured i would try experimenting first.)

[shagaKahn]

If it is the bulk (hundreds of pounds) guy, I've bought from him--but it was back last year when he was selling one-kilo vacuum packets.

 

Can't recall what the mesh of that batch was, but it too is lighter-colored than German--but it works great for 70/30. Almost kooler since it not only detonates but sends out these yummy streamers of burning aluminum.

 

(Need to go out and light off a batch at night for the visual effect).

 

Here's a direct link to his website:

 

http://finepowder.com/products.html

[frogy]

Totally not trying to be a dick here. As I've seen you've already accepted the fact that the Aluminum isn't good for flash.

 

I feel like a total ass for saying this, but really it's no fault, but yourself (not that you were blaming anyone). Hopefully you didn't get ripped off to badly. Please do ask before buying Metal powders off Ebay next time, as most pyros on here can spot a fake...

 

Though it is not like the guy is advertising as "Dark Flake Aluminum" from what I am guessing... Sort of user error.

 

 

shagaKahn, under normal conditions, Flash powder deflagrates, not detonates... I often slip the 'd' word also though...

 

They coat kno3 fertilizers so it cannot be used for pyrotechnics?

I wonder how they do that without effecting some other uses for kno3.

Example: Silver strip solution and other stuff.

 

No, rarely if any KNO3 fertilizer coated in the US, and I doubt elsewhere.

 

Some stump removers, such as Grant's, is said to have 50%-70% KNO3, the rest being odd binders and the such.

 

Purification is as simple as dissolving 36g/100ml (I believe ) in water, filtering, then heating to remove water...

 

 

Back on the aluminum note...

About a year back I found some awesome "2-4 micron Indian Blackhead" for $14/lb... and wow, damned if this is not the fastest aluminum flake I have ever seen. Even when roughly mixed with even coarse KClO4, this stuff makes an amazing "whoooomp", even in 1 gram quantities.

 

I have a US source for $15\lb. Eckart, and $13\lb. Dark (possibly Indian Blackhead).

 

The source that I got the amazing Indian Blackhead from is Ebay based, but they are up to $22.50/lb.

[tbland]

No offense taken, i was fully aware that the product might not (probably wouldn't) work right. But after buying aluminum for such an absurd amount i was fine with wasting 20 bux on a pound of it.

 

If anyone would like to recommend a source for aluminum i'm all ears. I won't be buying over a pound though, so preferably no bulk stuff. PM me if you'd rather.

[nath0r]

I've only ever seen german dark for sale on ebay once, and it had an asking price out of this universe for the ammount on offer.

 

I did however buy 500g of 400 mesh AL from ebay a while ago for use in glitters. I think i payed about £7 + postage for it. I have no complaints either, makes a fantastic glitter.

[50AE]

I've seen German Dark on eBay, for a hell of a price. So I started to use MgAl for my flash powder. However I saw and bought 500 grams of 400 mesh atomized Al, which is cheap and works great for stars and fountains.

[tentacles]

MgAl makes a great salute shell, ridiculously bright flash, and lights pretty easily. Give it a bit of confinement and it will sing nicely. In small qtys it doesn't have near the reactivity of the dark aluminums, but 10+g in a salute shell will do a nice job.

[asilentbob]

On the potassium nitrate note... I don't think any of the KNO3s are coated... With stump removers there can be others besides KNO3... The whole coating fertilizer thing is sometimes done with ammonium nitrate to deter would be terrorists.

[TheSidewinder]

tbland,

 

From the perspective of Safety, I have to ask, exactly how long have you been an amateur pyrotechnician? Beginners have no business whatsoever using flash, until they understand the dangers and have built a number of pyrotechnic devices that are safer and not terribly dangerous if they malfunction.

 

Your first few posts here are about flash, and while you seem to understand the chemistry involved (at least to some degree), if you've read our rules and at least some of the board, you'll understand that many of us are nervous about a newcomer whose first posts are about flash. The use of flash in Pyrotechnics is specific, is a VERY small part of the overall hobby, and the improper use or handling of it can KILL you.

 

You've posted about it a way that, on the face of it, seems responsible. However, know that we do not condone its discussion except in the most mature and responsible fashion. Our reasons are simple. It's damned touchy stuff and has killed quite a number of professionals, with DECADES of experience, in the field.

 

Newcomers seem fascinated with it, and often don't understand how sensitive it can be. And that's for the basic stuff: plain old Perc/Aluminum. Adding any other metal can make it more dangerous. And a few metals make it downright unstable.

 

We want all our members to keep their body parts, and enjoy the hobby, no more, no less, so that's why I posted. Feel free to respond here or via PM, but please do respond. Thank you.

[tbland]

Thanks for the warning. I try to always keep that in mind. I'm sure i can never be too careful but i make every attempt to stay extremely cautious with the stuff. I worked with coloring agents, for fountains and such, and then some blackpowder rockets for about a year. Then when i wanted to do a full shell i moved to flash.

 

I try to keep everything in a electrostatic free environment and i ground myself when i work, i only make max 10 gram batches, sometimes two of them. I have store all of my chemicals separately and of course never store any flash for more than a day.

 

I hope my questions didn't worry anyone, i know i'm not too experienced but i try to make sure i figure things out from people with experience first, and if i do experiment i do so very carefully ( a good 3 inches of visco for all of my unconfined 1 gram test batches).

 

Thanks for the concern, and thanks especially for all of the helpful comments.

[frogy]

MgAl makes a great salute shell, ridiculously bright flash, and lights pretty easily. Give it a bit of confinement and it will sing nicely. In small qtys it doesn't have near the reactivity of the dark aluminums, but 10+g in a salute shell will do a nice job.

I've noticed that my 200-325 mesh MgAl, 50\50 mixed 50:50 with KClO4 is pretty damn hard to light, though it burns with a beautiful shower of sparks unconfined, even in 1 gram quantities... Though you get a few grams in a nifty package, and it makes a very bright, and loud flash... I can see why the PGI "adopted" it... Insensitive, Bright, and Loud... Perfect qualities if you ask me.

 

On another flash note, I just made some 5:3:2 Nitrate flash with simply coffee milled KNO3\S (directly from pellet form) and it worked wonderfully... I've never had such a success with Nitrate flash... 1 gram was great for a "slow flash"... Much louder than I was expecting.

 

I suppose I just diapered it much more thoroughly than before.

 

 

I'd have to say that it is better to make a 20 gram quantity of flash at once, instead of (2) 10 gram batches... Twice the chance to go wrong with two batches, and you're going to get injured pretty badly if it is 10 grams or 20 grams... As they say with 100 gram+ batches (for the very experienced, also using less sensitive materials), you're dead either way...

 

About 10 grams or more unconfined with "contain itself" and make a loud report... So your definitely loosing hearing, and suffering snow blindness, plus the 2nd\3rd degree burns...

[TheSidewinder]

Thanks for the warning. I try to always keep that in mind. I'm sure i can never be too careful but i make every attempt to stay extremely cautious with the stuff. I worked with coloring agents, for fountains and such, and then some blackpowder rockets for about a year. Then when i wanted to do a full shell i moved to flash.

 

I try to keep everything in a electrostatic free environment and i ground myself when i work, i only make max 10 gram batches, sometimes two of them. I have store all of my chemicals separately and of course never store any flash for more than a day.

 

I hope my questions didn't worry anyone, i know i'm not too experienced but i try to make sure i figure things out from people with experience first, and if i do experiment i do so very carefully ( a good 3 inches of visco for all of my unconfined 1 gram test batches).

 

Thanks for the concern, and thanks especially for all of the helpful comments.

Ok. You seem to understand the risks involved, and have done your homework. Careful experimentation is a good thing, and about the only way to figure out how much or how little to use for your own needs. And remember that there are a number of other, safer, alternatives to flash, if a break charge or crossette-break charge is what you're after.

 

Stay safe, and welcome to the Forums.

[tentacles]

I've noticed that my 200-325 mesh MgAl, 50\50 mixed 50:50 with KClO4 is pretty damn hard to light, though it burns with a beautiful shower of sparks unconfined, even in 1 gram quantities... Though you get a few grams in a nifty package, and it makes a very bright, and loud flash... I can see why the PGI "adopted" it... Insensitive, Bright, and Loud... Perfect qualities if you ask me.

 

 

MgAl is 60:40 not 50:50. 50:50 is for Mg, 70:30 for Al. Try the 60:40, I think you'll be much happier with it.

[frogy]

Thanks. PGI said 50:50, so I figured that would probably be the best, since "their" 74:14:12 lift powder seems slightly better than regular meal, and they are an international pyro guild... Normally they know what they're talking about.

[FrankRizzo]

A small charge of a good mix with blackhead or indian dark placed in a flashbag at the center of a mixture with weak aluminum will get it up to speed. Commercial mfg use this technique to lower costs without noticeable decrease in report.

[Niter]

I made another batch of 20 grams, and it didn't work either. After awhile i got frustrated and held a torch to it for awhile; it started to glow and it threw a few sparks,

 

 

Aiaiai you scare me

 

20 grams is a LOT of flash for one batch. Even if you couldn't get it to light the first time, the potential for a selfconfined woomph is there. Be VERY careful OK?

 

Since you are working with perchlorate and German Dark aluminium anyway..

 

Now, to get your aluminium to work.. I got my Shimizu here and on page 230 there are some compositions, one being Flash Thunder No. 2.

 

Make an intimate mixture of 27 parts sulfur with 23 parts of aluminium.

 

Then, diaper a few grams of this mixture with KClO4, 1 : 1 by weight.

 

I can't imagine Flash Thunder No.2 not working with your aluminium, in fact if it then still doesn't work you should question it being aluminium at all!

 

Be careful: though far less an issue with perchlorate than with chlorate, Perchlorate/Sulfur/Aluminium flash is a tad more sensitive than a neat perchlorate/aluminium flash.

[superdank]

And remember that there are a number of other, safer, alternatives to flash, if a break charge or crossette-break charge is what you're after.

 

Such as whistle

 

Enjoy your endeavors, but again, be sure to do your homework, and be responsible.

[gunner1]

Be careful: though far less an issue with perchlorate than with chlorate, Perchlorate/Sulfur/Aluminium flash is a tad more sensitive than a neat perchlorate/aluminium flash.

 

 

Where was the internet 15 years ago? When I first got into this hobby, I made a FOUR POUND batch of potassium chlorate/sulfur/aluminum flas powder and stored it in a plastic busket in my bedroom. Yes, I do still have all my fingers and toes but man looking back I got real lucky. That stuff was powerful though. I put some in a steel pipe that was 1/2" in inside diameter and eight inches long. I put it in the stream by my house and put a HUGE piece of wood on it- it weighed at least 75 pounds. When that sucker went off, it blew the wood higher than the trees! God I was so stupid back then. Being in my thirties now with a girlfriend 0f 12 years and a son who is six sure makes me realize some risk just aren't worth taking.

[Richtee]

Be careful: though far less an issue with perchlorate than with chlorate, Perchlorate/Sulfur/Aluminium flash is a tad more sensitive than a neat perchlorate/aluminium flash.

 

 

 

Where was the internet 15 years ago? When I first got into this hobby, I made a FOUR POUND batch of potassium chlorate/sulfur/aluminum flas powder and stored it in a plastic busket in my bedroom. Yes, I do still have all my fingers and toes

 

Well, if there was a problem... several states around you would have had your fingers and toes. And other assorted chunks.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Richtee

[SpikedCola]

No, rarely if any KNO3 fertilizer coated in the US, and I doubt elsewhere.

Here in Canada, all KNO3 Fertilizer is 'prilled' and coated, and is basically useless as pure KNO3. That's what Im told anyways. Unless there's a way to remove the coating...

Edited October 15, 2008 by SpikedCola