Swede Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I tried a search but it failed... I've got bamboo and pecan shell flour turning into charcoal as I type. The gasses are jetting vigorously from the cans. How do I know when it is done? I don't want to overcook it! Thanks!
oskarchem Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Light the gasses, once they stop burning, it's finished. =)
Swede Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 Thanks oskarchem, just in time! I removed the pecan shell flour already... the bamboo is just about there. The pecan shell flour charcoal is amazing, visually. It is like cab-0-sil or some other freaky-fluffy powder. I'm very interested to see what kind of BP it'll make. Super bonus, it comes out of the retort as airfloat! The bamboo... got a nice patch in my backyard. It's very easy to cut lengths to fit into a can, and it packs well. I'll get some pics up of the process.
Swede Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 I got some cool results... I'll just have to wait a bit and see what kind of BP this stuff makes. On the fire. I've got a fire pit in the backyard, which will be very handy for small-scale charcoal production. Not much actual fire here but a serious bed of coals. I used a battery-powered leaf blower to produce at times almost incandescent temps. The bamboo is the large can, the pecan shell flour (PSF) is on the right. http://www.5bears.com/firew/char001.jpg The PSF jetted very flammable gasses, and due to the large surface area, was cooked in maybe 1/2 hour. http://www.5bears.com/firew/char002.jpg The moment I popped the lid, clouds of ultra-fine charcoal dust began to escape. I watched it literally flow along the ground like it was fog from a CO2 machine. I carefully dumped it on a piece of paper. It looks lumpy, but the lumps fall apart into dust at the slightest touch. Very fluffy stuff. The shiny leafy objects are the charred lining from the paint can. http://www.5bears.com/firew/char003a.jpg The bamboo looks good. It has an odd color and texture, almost a silvery cast, maybe due to a high silica content. The stuff is a grass, after all. Because the walls are thin, and the interiors are hollow, this stuff also cooked quickly, maybe 1.5 hours for the paint can. http://www.5bears.com/firew/char004.jpg http://www.5bears.com/firew/char005.jpg When broken, I've got a good, and hopefully not overcooked, charcoal through and through. http://www.5bears.com/firew/char006.jpg I am very hopeful on the pecan flour. As light as it is, I've got a feeling it'll make very good BP. PSF can be bought in 50 lb bags for less than $1/pound, not that that is especially cheap, and you still have to char it, but if it is as reactive as I think, the ease of making it, and the fact that you don't have to break up lumps, is a plus. I've got a 250 gram sample batch milling right now. My previous best BP was made with about 85% willow from this guy, and his willow charcoal is good but not cheap, about $5 per pound. I'll compare the two when this new batch is done.
psyco_1322 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 This is a bit OT but its on the subject of your pecan dust. That may just make some very excellant creamoras, I seen a few someone shot using walnut dust and they were amazing. So if you have some bp laying around try making some and see how it works.
oskarchem Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 This would be of great interest to me, because if I can find the PSF I could substedise my willow, not that I have anything agains willow, but, meh, charcoal is the thing that I have the least of, and I just can't find that courage to cook my willow.. But I need to
Swede Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 psyco, I'll look into cremoras, could be lots of fun! I'll let you guys know tonite how the PSF BP turns out. I've made enough batches now to know what's good and what's not, and my last willow batch was very good stuff. If it's comparable, I'll do a video. Another thought I had was that because the PSF is already powdered, when you pack a paint can full of it, you utilize 100% of the space, and yields are excellent. It chars SO fast. I am not experienced in making charcoal - made it twice before today, years ago - but my impression was that the PSF gassed super-violently, maybe because of the surface area. I punched maybe 6 holes in that quart can, and I thought the lid would still blow, so if anyone else tries it, be sure to vent properly. Here's 50 lb of PSF for $40. The jury is still out for now. I'll know in 3 hours.
FrankRizzo Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 If bamboo made good charcoal, the Chinese would use it. The cell walls of the bamboo shoot are very dense and full of inert minerals. My guess is that it won't be the best, but may make some nice sparks for use in stars or fountains. There's been some discussion on Passfire recently about the scale that possibly flakes off the inside of a old metal can (used for a few batches) while making charcoal. Be aware that you *may* have metal flakes in your charcoal that could cause sparking during ball milling.
frogy Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 The only thing about that flour is that it will probably cook down considerable... Hope for about 5 pounds of Charcoal from that... (Really I don't know, just a guesstimation). I was thinking about the scale off the side of old cans also... I doubt that the very small percentage of Metal powder will become pyrophoric while surrounded by so much charcoal...
psyco_1322 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 So what if you get a bit of black iron oxide in your charcoal. Thats like complaining about the lead coming off your mill media.
crazyboy25 Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 I don't know if bamboo makes top notch BP but im pretty sure I read about it being used in flash possibly for charcoal streamers. Pecan flour and balsa may make super fast meal but I think thats because they're so fluffy I would think they loose a good deal of speed when turned onto lift.
Swede Posted June 24, 2008 Author Posted June 24, 2008 Initial impressions of the PS flour BP after 7 hours of milling - it's very serviceable, but not as fast as my willow. frogy, you brought up a point that didn't even click with me... of course you're not going to get 50 lb of charcoal for $40. After it burns down, the cost per pound will be much higher, so why bother making this stuff if you can buy pre-made willow charcoal for $5/lb or less? I think the pecan flour will be great for any comp that calls for "wood dust" because it is so fine to begin with. Cremoras, need to try that. But for BP, I can't see it. If it was faster than good willow BP, maybe, but right now, no. It was worth a try, though. You never know, it might have turned out better than balsa. Just to be sure, I'll corn some of it. It was milled with 2% red gum, as was my better willow BP. With the bamboo, I'll try some BP with it too, but I suspect it'll go into streamers, rockets, and such. It was a fun experiment. I can always fire up the pit and do pine or balsa some other time.
Swede Posted June 24, 2008 Author Posted June 24, 2008 Ignore this post! ^^^ I put the jar back on the mill and ran it another 5 hours and got a huge performance boost. I pressed and corned a very small sample of it and it may be faster than my willow. It's midnight here and I'm too tired but I'll do a more scientific comparison tomorrow between my willow and the PSF. It's not earth-shaking stuff but it might be a good alternate source for a quality, reactive charcoal. The initial mediocre results surprised me because I was expecting faster, due to the light, fluffy consistency, but the additional milling and the pressing seemed to really jack up the speed. Comparing BP straight out of the mill jar is not a good way to go... it needs to be processed further to achieve its full potential.
frogy Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 I believe that Fluffy powders are strengthened even more-so when dampened\corned than denser charcoals... I have a random charcoal question... Does anyone else notice their Willow charcoal being extremely clumpy when ran through a coffee mill\food processor... It seems that my charcoal is in the 200 mesh range, yet still clumpy as hell. Even after I ball mill it all sticks together (after 3 hours in a decent mill), though it still burns very fast. Maybe I'm just used to my ultra-fine Pine lift... That stuff is a pain when not granulated... It leaves stains of everything and floats around. Thank god that BP taste relatively good Who cares if it's not so good to eat... I only break my M40 out when I'm working with BaNO3 or the such
Swede Posted June 24, 2008 Author Posted June 24, 2008 frogy, when you say "clump" are you referring to the tendency of milled charcoal powder to form lumps that look a bit solid, but then fall apart easily? Is it moisture, perhaps? I can't say I've seen my milled willow charcoal behave like anything else than what it is, a superfine, messy powder. Static charge? I think when a superfine powder like that has been sitting undisturbed for a while, the powder particles slowly settle and sort of "connect" with each other. In the machining world, there are precision blocks of steel used for measurement called "Jo-blocks" that have surfaces so perfect, when they contact each other, they stick like magnets. Maybe it's something along those lines, a particulate capillary action. Question for you guys - is there a typical and standard way to test BP for speed? I've got two powders prepared exactly the same way, one willow, one PSF, pressed, corned, and sieved. Obviously you weigh out identical amounts. Do you then form a line of powder in an aluminum angle extrusion, of a given length? Another stupid Q. When sieving powder, let's say I have a powder that passes through a 10 mesh screen, but is trapped and retained by a 20. Would this powder then be (-10+20)? If someone says "I have 325 mesh Al"... does this mean the aluminum in question is fine enough to pass through a 325 screen? I'm letting the sieved test samples dry, they I'll set up a rig and do a video. The PSF BP looks fast. Thank you all for your help.
Bonny Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 I believe that Fluffy powders are strengthened even more-so when dampened\corned than denser charcoals... I have a random charcoal question... Does anyone else notice their Willow charcoal being extremely clumpy when ran through a coffee mill\food processor... It seems that my charcoal is in the 200 mesh range, yet still clumpy as hell. Even after I ball mill it all sticks together (after 3 hours in a decent mill), though it still burns very fast. Maybe I'm just used to my ultra-fine Pine lift... That stuff is a pain when not granulated... It leaves stains of everything and floats around. Thank god that BP taste relatively good Who cares if it's not so good to eat... I only break my M40 out when I'm working with BaNO3 or the such I had a batch of willow do the same thing when I ground it up in my meat grinder. I assumed it was moisture and put the charcoal in my drying box for 1/2day. It was then much more "floaty". I then proceeded as usual and made some good pressed and corned lift powder.
frogy Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 frogy, when you say "clump" are you referring to the tendency of milled charcoal powder to form lumps that look a bit solid, but then fall apart easily? Is it moisture, perhaps? I can't say I've seen my milled willow charcoal behave like anything else than what it is, a superfine, messy powder. Static charge? I think when a superfine powder like that has been sitting undisturbed for a while, the powder particles slowly settle and sort of "connect" with each other. In the machining world, there are precision blocks of steel used for measurement called "Jo-blocks" that have surfaces so perfect, when they contact each other, they stick like magnets. Maybe it's something along those lines, a particulate capillary action. Question for you guys - is there a typical and standard way to test BP for speed? I've got two powders prepared exactly the same way, one willow, one PSF, pressed, corned, and sieved. Obviously you weigh out identical amounts. Do you then form a line of powder in an aluminum angle extrusion, of a given length? Another stupid Q. When sieving powder, let's say I have a powder that passes through a 10 mesh screen, but is trapped and retained by a 20. Would this powder then be (-10+20)? If someone says "I have 325 mesh Al"... does this mean the aluminum in question is fine enough to pass through a 325 screen? I'm letting the sieved test samples dry, they I'll set up a rig and do a video. The PSF BP looks fast. Thank you all for your help. It seems to break up into a combination of superfine and 40-80 mesh particles like most charcoal, but then it doesn't float in the air. I suppose it is just moisture... Maybe I'll grind up all the charcoal and sit it outside on a hot day. Most people that are actually trying to figure out the burn-speed of their BP place the BP in an angle iron with a set distance between the start\stop. Though an Audio program like Goldwave can be used to figure out the time, I have seen some people wire up microswitches to a stopwatch to trigger at the start\stop points of burning when a string is melted. http://fogoforum.us/bptester.php Most of the time when metal powders are referred to,as a single mesh number with no + or - denotation, they are -Mesh Number. Example, I have a lot of 30µm Atomized Aluminum. That would mean that the majority of the Aluminum is 30µm or smaller. -10+20 means that the powder goes through a 10 mesh screen, but all is retained on a 20 mesh screen.
Swede Posted June 26, 2008 Author Posted June 26, 2008 Most of the time when metal powders are referred to,as a single mesh number with no + or - denotation, they are -Mesh Number. Example, I have a lot of 30µm Atomized Aluminum. That would mean that the majority of the Aluminum is 30µm or smaller. -10+20 means that the powder goes through a 10 mesh screen, but all is retained on a 20 mesh screen.Thanks frogy. Tests and videos... the PSF BP seems identical to my willow BP. The BP was pressed and then corned. I went to great lengths to treat the samples identically. Both used the same solvents (water + alcohol) in the same amounts, with the same red gum binder. Both were sieved rather coarse, 10 mesh. Two 7 gram samples were prepared. I made a test rig out of an aluminum "U" channel, and spread the samples rather thinly along approx 18" of the channel. I made the powder trail as even as possible in both cases. The vids are about 500 kb... 7 grams willow BP 10 mesh 7 grams PSF BP 10 mesh Both seem identical to me. Without analyzing frames and such, I think I can conclude that charcoal made with pecan shell flour is good stuff, and is another source of charcoal that may be useful. Benefits are that it is airfloat from the start! All you have to do is char it.
tentacles Posted June 26, 2008 Posted June 26, 2008 Swede, you mentioned the custom charcoal place for willow - forget the willow and just buy his red alder. It's at least as fast as willow (faster, actually) and it's about half the price. I just toss chunks in my mill and give it an extra 30 minutes of milling... So 3 1/2 hours. His alder comes to about $2/lb with shipping.
Swede Posted June 26, 2008 Author Posted June 26, 2008 His alder comes to about $2/lb with shipping. It gets better and better... didn't even think of this! Thanks! At $2 / lb it's hardly worth the time and effort to make your own charcoal. It is not hard... in fact it's kind of fun and novel to do your own, but it's also messy and time consuming.
frogy Posted June 26, 2008 Posted June 26, 2008 OOoooh... Where is this place at? The only thing I really get tired about in Pyro is making charcoal... I hate scavenging for pine, hopefully one day I can find a construction site and pick up a 55gallon drums worth of pine... That might last me a week... just kidding... that would last me months and months. Those powders really looked nearly identical... Normally speed is tested in an angle-iron of 36" length, with a system of evenly distributing powder down all the angle-iron. I have enough Poplar and Willow to last me for lift for ages... I'd hate to kill it all on Charcoal stars...
Swede Posted June 30, 2008 Author Posted June 30, 2008 If anyone was curious about the bamboo BP, it is not fast. I ball milled it for 24 hours, twice what I would do for a willow batch, and it hit a wall, speed-wise. It'll be fine for cored rockets, priming, all sorts of BP tasks, but certainly not for lift or break. I'd say the burn speed is 1/2 the willow, piled loosely.
FREAKYDUTCHMEN Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 I think the chinese have figured it out allready Perhaps usefull for star compositions?
Swede Posted July 1, 2008 Author Posted July 1, 2008 I think the chinese have figured it out allready Perhaps usefull for star compositions? Call me doubting thomas! I MUST see for myself! That would have been simply too convenient if it was hot BP. Then, in bamboo, you have fuel for rocket BP, sticks, AND tubes, all in one glorious plant. It should be OK for stars and such. I'll probably use it for match. I hate using hot willow BP for match, it seems such a waste.
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