BLAST420 Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I understnad that if you dont ball mill your black powder it is refered to as GREEN MIX. Now I have very finely ground chemicals(duh!) so is it at all POSSABLE to create burst quality or a lift charge black powder with no ball mill!?!? Any substitutions to the ball mill??? Is this that dangerous of a process?? As not to be done in a garage? lol I know this is bad post but just wanted to make sure! As always thanks!!
Bonny Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I understnad that if you dont ball mill your black powder it is refered to as GREEN MIX. Now I have very finely ground chemicals(duh!) so is it at all POSSABLE to create burst quality or a lift charge black powder with no ball mill!?!? Any substitutions to the ball mill??? Is this that dangerous of a process?? As not to be done in a garage? lol I know this is bad post but just wanted to make sure! As always thanks!! Start by doing some reading on here, there are several threads loaded with info on black powder. You can try the CIA method if you have no ball mill.
Swede Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 This article is informative and a good place to start. I haven't tried it - yet. I have done the CIA method (alcohol precipitated BP) and it produces powder worthy of respect. I did a small batch (500g) as a test of the method, and found it to be useful powder, infinitely better than green/mortar+pestle stuff, but not close to ball milling. I use the batch now for testing stars in a star gun, mostly, and it also works fine for things like mines, fountains, etc.
DeepOvertone Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I have tried the method detailed in that skylighter article. I was using the ballmilling and red gum method with commercial airfloat charcoal. For whatever reason, I cant get the granulated bp to stay together. Its pretty soft. I contacted the author(Ned Gorski) and we have been talking back and forth about it. I tried adding more red gum to the batch (from 1% up to 2.5%) But still the granules are soft enough to crush with just a little finger pressure. I've detailed my procedure to Ned and he said everything was done correctly so they shouldn't be soft like that. Hopefully the red gum is to blame. Has anyone else had any luck with this method?
TheSidewinder Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 There has been endless debate about the dangers of ballmilling BP. Explosions have been recorded, but are admittedly very rare and the exact cause remains unknown as far as I know. I've done it in a "bunker", a pit in the ground deep enough to force an explosion upwards instead of allowing it to go outwards. Turn the ballmill off and on remotely, preferably a hundred feet away if you have an extension cord that long. Doing it in your garage is generally a bad idea, but ahh.... people do it.
Richtee Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Has anyone else had any luck with this method? Nope... corn it. If you want rock hard grains, corn it. It's easy enough to cast an epoxy ram for a PVC sleeve. I use 2", make about 4 pucks per 200 gram batch.
BPinthemorning Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 I've been having trouble making a good ram for my corning. What is your source of epoxy Richtee?
Richtee Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 I've been having trouble making a good ram for my corning. What is your source of epoxy Richtee?Actually, it was institutional tile grout formula...2 part. Mixed with sand, which seems to help the cure to be more even. I'd imagine the 2 part floor coating stuff would work too. Or just 15 tubes of the stuff in the hardware stores. Be sure to use like 20 or so percent sand tho. Oil up the mold, pour in and let it set for a few days. I pre-cut the mold tube- not all the way thru, but enough that a sharp hammer blow busted it.
BLAST420 Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 so wait...!! your saying if I corn my 75/15/10 mix that this can eliminate having to mill the bp? will these corn CHUNKERS lol be good to blast a shell up...??? I dont think so right??? MAINLY does this cornin method replace the millin at all?...possable.........
hst45 Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 BLAST, you just BLAST in here and ASK a shit-ton of questions in a few posts. How about you READ a shit-ton of posts and THEN ask any questions that haven't been answered, perhaps 100 times already.... or even better yet , REPORT on what YOU'VE done that might help US out and we'll share our experience with you!. When the hell did we volunteer to be the "Shell Answer Man" to all your questions? O.K., I'm old, the damned nurse here at the Home is stealing my whiskey, and I'm late for my canasta tournement so I'm a bit bitchy. I apologize. The point is that none of us here has all the answers. We're all fellow searchers on the ladder of pyro knowledge. We'll gladly give you a hand up to help you to get to where we are, but this ain't the public dole of pyro knowledge; we all worked damned hard for it, and we want you to work for it too.... you'll understand it better if you do, and therefor you'll be much less likely to loose a body-part if you think it through and learn the chemistry than if someone tells you that compound "A" and compound "B" will do what you want. In this hobby, what you don't know W-i-L-L kill you. Read, study, enjoy........survive.
BLAST420 Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 well... I guess theres no beating around the bush than when it comes to getting your hands on some good quality BP... hell I mean what another $40 for a mill on top of the $420 I just spent on stuff to get me up an goin!!! I jus wanna produe QUALITY product .... no garbage!!!
TheSidewinder Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 While hst could have been a BIT more diplomatic about it.... he's basically correct. You have to do your own experimentation, AFTER having read the safety section to know what NOT to do, and WHILE you reference the existing collection of information here. Trial and error will fix more firmly in your head, the results of what works and what doesn't. I understand your eagerness. I was the same, and I suspect nearly everyone else was too. But you really need to do your homework, and search the whole forum for answers to what you want to know. Start small and simple: Smokes, Fountains, even small BP rockets (though they can be tricky, and might discourage a really NEW pyro who doesn't get good results quickly), then onto Mines and small, simple aerial shells. And as was said, it's what you don't know that can kill you. Pyrotechnics is a hobby that is TERRIBLY unforgiving of mistakes and carelessness.
Swede Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 I'm a noob. I've ball-milled several batches of BP, and when done correctly, then pressed, corned, and screened, it rivals or outperforms commercial GOEX... at the whopping price of maybe $1 pound, or less. I read like an idiot before milling my first batch, and it was a 200 gram junior batch. Plastic jar, lead or brass media, is best. Remote on/off - smart. Handle the finished jar gingerly. I very gently dump the contents into a big pan, and separate the media from the BP by hand, one at a time, outside in the shade of a tree, not indoors where there are ignition sources. It takes a long time. I'd rather do it this way, than agitate the mass through a screen to separate. Clanking media + BP in my face makes me cringe. Once the media is out, then there's a bit of relief, as you no longer have impact and friction sources within the batch. The more I do it, though, the more comfortable I've become... which is A BAD THING. I must continually remind myself that "this jar of BP I've just pulled off the mill will kill me if it goes." The meal powder is drifting about, I'm worried about motor sparking, etc. Yet thousands of people ball-mill BP daily, and home mill explosions are essentially unheard of. Almost always, a pyro accident with BP is not due to the BP itself, it's due to an outside force that could be avoided, such as an ignition source. Other Pyro accidents almost always are the result of comps other than BP. I think if you FORCE yourself to respect the process, then safety and success is almost assured. As for a ball mill, you don't have to buy one; with a surplus motor, you can make one. The supplies like pullies and belts, shafting, etc is almost all available from hardware stores. My favorites (simplicity-wise) are the ones that use casters as an idling wheel/bar rather than a long shaft. So it can be done on the cheap, but ultimately like any other cool hobby, you've got to pay to play. Either way, a ball mill I think is simply a must-have. Think of this - most if not all star recipes call for meal powders. Talc fine. Your KNO3 out of the bag is like sugar or prills, and is useless in that form. It too must be ball milled down to starch consistency. So the ball mill isn't just for BP, it sees MAJOR use in almost every facet of this hobby. In my cabinet, I have buckets labeled "KNO3 GRANULES" and another labeled "KNO3 MILLED", and it is the Milled bucket I reach for when making stars. The Milled bucket is refilled by ball-milling KNO3 from the GRANULES bucket. Kind of long winded - sorry - but I do like your statement about QUALITY. I am the same way. The learning journey is part of the fun.
BLAST420 Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 Ahh yes yes!! I am excited about this your right it is a must I wont go any furtur without it. If you want the quality you gotta have it, and it has MANY purposes other than BP!!! great point thanks looks like this is a good buy!?!? http://pyrocreations.com/ball_mills___media
oskarchem Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 The 3lb ball mill is ok, to start, but the more I get into this hobby, the more I need a bigger, more performant mill. Because, with all of the media loaded, I can only put max. 300g of composition. Be warned that the belts that come with the mill, get worn quite fast.
BLAST420 Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 so you say 200g of bp + media how much media would you suggest for 200g bp I am going to me using the lead media off that site(that would be best right???) the small lead ones
oskarchem Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Well, about 50 media comes with the ball mill, wich will just cover the bottom. 100 would be good, but then you would be making small batches. So go with 50
BLAST420 Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 wow thats alot of balls in there I didnt inmagine that many I see why picking them out can be intimadating!!! ......
Swede Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Blast, the three pound ubiquitous ball mill in your link requires HUNDREDS of 1/2" balls to be effective. Ball mill media is one of the big headaches of this hobby. You either pay through the nose, labor long and hard cutting your own, or both. I'd skip the lead balls personally. I think a better media is a brass bar, cut into segments. They occupy more space, so fewer are needed, and they work very well. http://www.5bears.com/firew/bp020.jpg This is the same jar as the one in the link. The jars are pretty decent. You can see the brass media mixed up in there. I use a mix of 1/2" and 3/4" brass rounds cut into 1/2" and 3/4" lengths. Stainless round bar works well too. Whatever you use, you need to fil the empty jar up nearly 1/2 full. Then, you add enough chems to take it to maybe 2/3 full. The 3lb jar seems to be able to make 300 grams BP or so max, at least it does with my setup. The media wouldn't be such a problem if the prices of copper hadn't soared in the last few years... I mean they have quintupled or more. I used to buy 3/4" X 3' brass rods for maybe $8, now they are what, $40? It's insane. Ceramic media is another option. I have some, it is relatively cheap, and I think it works great. But the jury is out on its sparking tendencies. For individual chems, it performs perfectly. That ball mill will shred its belt within days. You may as well buy a rubber o-ring at a plumbing store to replace it on day one. If you can hack the cost, the eBay yellow ball mill guy makes a MUCH better product that will do gallon+ jars. Do a kilo of BP with ease. But... more media!
BLAST420 Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 O i see great picture!!! gives me a good idea of how I am going to go forward with my puhchase......I think i'm gunna get the 3lb I will probally end up getting the brass chunkers!. or lead they both will be effective it seems.. also thanks for the heads up on how much media too purchase up.....lol I prolly would have had like 10 balls in there !! lol I would have ended up wastin alot of my time!
tentacles Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 When (not if) you're ready for bigger batches of BP, get yourself a subscription to passfire (if you don't have one already) and check out Kyle's ball milling articles. Or buy Lloyd Sponenburgh's book on ball milling. Then build your own, it's not terribly difficult. Alternatively there's a fellow on passfire selling some very neat and well built mills, variable speed and everything. Pretty reasonable price as I recall. On a related note, I scored another 13lb of SS bar stock the other day. I may actually get that 8" jar up to a full load of media with this, close to 50lbs.
DeepOvertone Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 I have that same 3lb mill I'm using a little over 2 lbs of media. Here are some pictures for refrence. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/pyroman2000/IMG_0134.jpghttp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/pyroman2000/IMG_0136.jpghttp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/pyroman2000/IMG_0132.jpg There were a hundred in the box and it looks like there are about 25 left. I guess they are about 2-3 layers deep on the bottom of the jar. I can mill 350grams max with this setup. Works great.
tentacles Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 Another box or two of that ammo and you'll have a proper mill charge there But if it makes good BP as is there's no reason to change it. Rule of thumb is to fill the jar halfway (when closed) with media, no matter the density of the media. Lead media is heavier so it mills faster, brass/SS are generally considered to mill a bit slower. Ceramic has the lowest density, except for tungsten carbide. I recently came across some carbide that might be usable for milling, though given the price of the stuff (even as scrap) it'd be worthwhile to sell off and then buy ceramic.
Mumbles Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 I use 100 .500 caliber lead balls in my small mill. It is of course not very efficient. I give it around 8-10 hours to mill depending on the fineness of the chemicals initially.
BLAST420 Posted June 5, 2008 Author Posted June 5, 2008 interesting thats what I plan on using mumbles hopefully it should be able to produce some decent quality BP !!!!
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