Hints and tips for Australians

[Gunzway]

Yeah go for it. From what I've heard, a bag can cost more than $100 for sure due to potassium products skyrocketing in the last year. It'll last a considerable amount of time if you're not large scale, I still have many kg's to go in mine.

[mike_au]

While we are on the subject, do we have any economists here? What are potassium nitrate futures looking like? Should we be stocking up now before another price hike or waiting for the big drop?

[MilkyJoe]

$80! Makes me wonder how long ago I bought my last bag, pretty sure it was around $40 for 25kg. But considering the first time I bought KNO3 I paid $15/kg I guess I would pay $80 if I was desperate.

[Kweltan]

Well im not too desperate, so before i buy the 25kg bag i might just buy a 500g lot from Auschems and experiment a little before i buy more, since i have had little to no experience with KNO3; i also need to find a way to store it all.Any suggestions?

 

Also, would there be any risks concerning the police from storing that much KNO3? Say, if for some reason the police searched the shed and found 25 kilos of KNO3, a ball mill, charcoal, sulfur etc. would there be any grounds for arrest (or anything similar)?

 

Thanks,

Kweltan

Edited December 9, 2009 by Kweltan

[Gunzway]

You could possibly be charged with the intent to manufacture explosives. But there's going to be no difference between having a small quantity versus a larger quantity when caught so don't worry about that. But if you were to be caught with those items without them having a clue what you were up to, I would say it would go generally ignored. KNO3 is a good fertilizer and sulfur is also used in the garden. Whilst charcoal is useful for smoking things. A ball mill, well it could be used for numerous things including rock polishing to grinding up egg shells or similar items. Besides, from what I know; the police have no clue about these sorts of things. Milky can even vouch for that, after speaking to some people in industry. You can't be charged for having those items alone, provided you purchased them legally and are legal to own (which is the case). But as said, if willing to they might manipulate it to find some charges they can lay on you. The only chemical you're not really meant to have is NH4NO3, but that can still be purchased legally.

 

This is just my two cents, I have no degrees in Australian law or anything. But the chances of being prosecuted harshly for doing these sorts of things is incredibly low. Most people who have been 'busted', have never got into the legal sorts of things and the police either told them to stop or gave them a scare. For the people that have been caught doing stupid things (not making fireworks, but things related back to property destruction and explosive devices designed to inflict maximum damage) have got very minimal sentences if anything other than probation at all. Just don't annoy the neighbors, keep a neat and tidy workplace and keep it down low and you should be fine. It's like the police are out there searching for 'illegal fireworks', I've seen police just look over and say 'Oh.. that looks good'. It's really if there's damage that has taken place or they've received complaints when they are forced to look into it and resolve it.

 

Storing the KNO3 is pretty straight forward, keep it away from fuels or anything similar. I would say to keep it out of an area which isn't cold or wet, otherwise it'll absorb a lot of water. Probably throw an old sheet onto it or something, unless you like the nice bright yellow label 'Oxidizing agent 5.1' staring everyone in the face. I just keep it in the bag I bought it in, don't think too much of it and just have common sense.

[nick2354]

Kweltan, Im from Adelaide and the only place I could find KNO3 was at a hydroshop and it used to cost me about 5/per kg, but now it has gone up to 20/per kg, so for obvious reasons I have bought any and I am down to my last 6kg's.

 

Could you please send me a PM letting me know where I can get it for 3.30/per kg. Also, If you need any hemis, or anything let me know. I live in the Eastern suburbs.

Edited December 9, 2009 by nick2354

[MilkyJoe]

I have no degrees in Australian law or anything.

With the amount of studying you do I find that surprising!

 

But as for storing and police, if your concerned a good measure to take would be not to store items together in once place.

[Arthur]

In ANY country the first rule must be not to be, or cause a nuisance. If you go firing flash salutes in a small suburban garden then the men in boots may get heavy, If you fire a pretty firework of a size to suit the site then the neighbours may enjoy it too.

[mike_au]

I've found the tidiest way to store stuff is to go grab a heap of resealable buckets from bunnings. About $5 for the smaller ones, $10-15 for the larger ones.

 

I've got about 5 separate buckets for different types of chemicals. They stack relatively neatly and look fairly inconspicuous, I've got oxidizers at one end of my bench and everything else at the other end. As long as you keep the lids on tight they keep the moisture out, no problems with clumping.

[Kweltan]

Thanks for all the info/advice everyone! its very helpful to a newbie like me!

 

Referring to the suggestion of not annoying the neighbours; im unlucky enough to be living next to a drugged up lunatic; so when i think i about it, i think it would be safer to only have small quantities of KNO3 etc. just in case i accidently (or purposely) set off small salutes (or anything else) and he decides to ring the police and make up b.s stories (he has done it many times before) about whatever his screwed up mind can think of. It would probably be better if the police are called and they only find small quantities, as opposed to finding 25kg bags of anything; which would make it seem less suspicious (i think). Especially considering the types of stories that could be conjured up (e.g "theyre trying to blow my house up"; stupid i know, but you havent met this guy). Which could "make" the police want to search my premises.

 

the police have no clue about these sorts of things. Milky can even vouch for that

 

Knowing my luck, i'd get the one police officer who knows everything about anything and i'd get asked tricky questions, stumble over myself and dig a deep, deep hole

 

In all seriousness though, as you said Gunzway, most of these substances can be bought legally in one form or another; so it may be best if i research some "other" uses, so i can lie through my teeth and appear to know what im talking about, if the situation ever arises. After all theres a chance the police in my area wont look to kindly on homemade fireworks and whatever punishment they give, no matter how minimal or severe, im sure i dont want to receive it.

 

Also, the only bad thing about buying KNO3 is smaller quantities is that i'll probably have to purchase it from Auschems, which will end up costing $20/kg excl. shipping. Does anybody know of any other places that sell in smaller quantities but are a little cheaper?

 

Thanks again,

Kweltan

[Gunzway]

Yeah, neighbors will be the number one concern. I'm just blessed my neighbors love what I get up to and always come over on New Years and are interested in what I can do this year. If your neighbors are bad, I would very very cautious about what you do on your property. Considering the nature of Australia, setting off items in parks and places with trees is also a 'no no'. Best place to set off things would be a beach, in luck a lot of us live by the coast. Know your rights too, they need a search warrant etc.

 

Don't buy it for that price Kweltan. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg and you can easily save yourself the cash. I know you think it may be 'risky' as it would be large and clearly visible but you don't have to keep it with everything else. If you want to, another way to go about it is to have someone; maybe a well trusted friend or parent keep it for you at their house. They could use it on their garden, perfectly legal and every month or so you come with your container and pick up 1kg of it. Maybe just even keeping it under your house could be an alternative. I originally had my source of KNO3 as I had someone that needed it for work, for a silver strip solution to remove the silver plating off things. The original plan was to keep it there and I'll just take 1kg home whenever I needed it. Blatantly, I've otherwise changed that .

 

I doubt you'll find a place that sells small quantities for a similar price to that of buying bulk. Your best bet, is to just buy a bag of KNO3. Best to have a nice quantity before the government decides to restrict it for one reason or another or before potassium products become very expensive. Knowing alternatives for the chemicals you own is a good idea to, a bit of research into it never hurts. I've never been personally asked what I'm doing with the items I've purchased, but I know uses and have enough knowledge to elaborate on them.

 

Good luck!

 

Gunzway.

[MilkyJoe]

If nick2354 lives near your source for 25kg bags let him know and I'm sure he'll send you a couple kg's for a great price!

[mike_au]

it may be best if i research some "other" uses, so i can lie through my teeth and appear to know what im talking about

 

Be careful you don't dig the hole deeper.

 

I would suggest everyone (especially us pyros) watch this:

 

http://qikweb.info/~mike_au/DontTalk.asf

 

It is a 256MB file, if that is a bit much let me know and I will re-encode it.

[Kweltan]

In regards to leaving it at someone elses house, not only do i not have anyone who would be willing to do so but i wouldnt feel comfortable leaving it there. Personally i think there are too many variables to consider, they themselves may have no idea what it is adn what it is capable of, and that could be a major problem. Pus i live with my parents (im only 16) so anything i do goes through my dad first and there's no way he would agree to having 25 kilos at home, let alone at someone elses house.

 

I would love to be able to have a large quantity of KNO3 at home, considering im only just starting out in pyrotechnics (only just) it would be convenient to have an "unlimited" supply, so i dont have to worry about buying it and can experiment and do basically whatever i want to (within reason of course). Worse comes to worse, for the time being it may have to cost me an arm and a leg and it will probably be worth it, so i can begin learning as soon as possible. That is, unless Nick2354 is willing to help me out

 

Mike_au, that was an extremely interesting video, i recommend everybody should watch it!

But i do i have a few questions (which you may/may not be able to answer):

 

Is there a law in Australia that mirrors the 5th amendment?

 

Can not saying anything be used against you in some way? Since you are refusing to answer questions, wouldnt it seem alot more suspicious?

 

 

Thanks everyone!

Kweltan

[mike_au]

Is there a law in Australia that mirrors the 5th amendment?

 

I don't think we have anything that is quite as straight forward and obviously worded, and I know there was talk of introducing encryption laws that would require you to give up any encryption keys if ordered, which wouldn't be allowed by the 5th amendment in the US, however I'm fairly sure that there aren't any laws saying your have to answer if the police ask you stuff. There are laws saying you have to answer truthfully under certain circumstances (which is where you could run into trouble making up excuses) but saying nothing shouldn't be an issue.

 

Can not saying anything be used against you in some way? Since you are refusing to answer questions, wouldnt it seem alot more suspicious?

 

You may piss off the cop, but if the cop is there asking the questions in the first place then they probably already suspect you are guilty of something. I think that if you do it politely ("I'm sorry, I would like to help you but I think I should talk to a lawyer" rather than "F**k you, I ain't sayin' nuffim'!") they shouldn't get too worked up. As they said in the video, if you really absolutely feel that you need to say something, there will be plenty of time for that, why not wait until your lawyer is there first?

 

Two things I have taken a lot of care to do that I hope would count in my favour if I were ever arrested (knock on wood) are keep a detailed log book of what compositions I have made, how much, how they performed, etc (this shows that I am making display fireworks and not just trying to blow s**t up) and keeping an up to date safety file. My safety file has basic first aid cheat sheets (treatments for burns, cuts, etc), MSDSs for *ALL* of my chemicals and equipment (even stuff like charcoal and PVA glue) and a quick check list of symptoms against possibly poisons (to make finding the right MSDS quicker). It is a bright red file mounted on the wall a bit away from my work area. Hopefully that would be considered evidence that I am aware of the safety issues and am trying to minimize the risk.

 

Other little things that I hope would work in my favour are having my mill built into a box with 1" ply steel reinforced walls and a light weight lid (so any blast would be directed upwards), having clear labels on all chemicals, having several fire extinguishers in my work area and keeping all finished compositions and devices in a locked cupboard.

 

Obviously some of those thing will themselves be a little bit suspicious (who has 5 fire extinguishers in their backyard?) so it is a bit of a trade off.

 

Now for the obligatory disclaimer, IANAL and really I'm basing this off common sense and news articles, two things that often have little relation to reality. If you want straight answers, talk to a lawyer.

[Ralph]

your KNO₃ is cheaper than what nick can get

[Kweltan]

If the police ever knock on my door, ill say nothing, just in case

 

Two things I have taken a lot of care to do that I hope would count in my favour if I were ever arrested (knock on wood) are keep a detailed log book of what compositions I have made, how much, how they performed, etc (this shows that I am making display fireworks and not just trying to blow s**t up) and keeping an up to date safety file. My safety file has basic first aid cheat sheets (treatments for burns, cuts, etc), MSDSs for *ALL* of my chemicals and equipment (even stuff like charcoal and PVA glue) and a quick check list of symptoms against possibly poisons (to make finding the right MSDS quicker). It is a bright red file mounted on the wall a bit away from my work area. Hopefully that would be considered evidence that I am aware of the safety issues and am trying to minimize the risk.

 

Other little things that I hope would work in my favour are having my mill built into a box with 1" ply steel reinforced walls and a light weight lid (so any blast would be directed upwards), having clear labels on all chemicals, having several fire extinguishers in my work area and keeping all finished compositions and devices in a locked cupboard.

 

To be honest Mike_au, all of those things you have mentioned, i havent even considered. At the moment i dont have any dangerous substances in my possession, but before i do purchase any i'll definitely take similar safety precautions. I'm sure that they will work in your favour, as opposed to having dangerous substances "thrown" around the shed or something like that. And the fact that you have the MSDS's, first-aid sheets and symptom check-lists is definitely favourable. It looks like you have a clear knowledge of what you are doing and have taken proper safety precautions to keep you (and possibly anyone else who enters your work area) safe.

 

This, im sure will be acknowledged and might make your defense lawyers job a little easier

 

Though the fact still remains, you are illegally making pyrotechnic devices (without a licence?) on your property; so my guess is you would still be punished, though the aforementioned safety precautions could potentially reduce your punishment.

 

I have to say im really impressed with the lengths you have gone to, to protect yourself and others! I'll definitely take a leaf out of your book!

 

Thanks,

Kweltan

[frosty90]

Hi All,

 

I was just pointed to this 'aussie' thread by mike_au so I thought I'd let you all know your not alone in oz!

 

Im in SA, are there many others from SA? I am particularly worried about police attention, I am very careful about this stuff, but at the end of the day I cant help but feel its a thin line with the strict laws here. Has anyone else ever had problems witht the law in SA?

 

Cheers,

Jesse

[Ralph]

Im from SA the South Australia police know of only one explosive device they believe that C4 is also made from this they think that all explosives are variations on the chlorine bomb that being said they will still arest you for it so be wise never disharge at home never disharge in an area were any one will see or here the device and you shouldnt have any problems

[scrappy]

Hey Mike,

Keeping a log is great for your own referential information, but keeping it to incriminate youself is a bit daft,( they very well might not know what you have been up to 6 --- 12 months previously ( but reading your log they sure as hell will then ) if the police knock on your door you obviously have been a little blatant in your indescretion, having your safety equipment is very wise, but i'm sure if they did come knocking they would be able to tell from your chemical inventory , ie:- ( chlorine donors, colour donors, titanium, magnalium and a plethora of other chemicals ) that you weren't in it for the acute vandalism as someone whom only has perchlorate and dark aluminium

[Gunzway]

They wouldn't have a clue what chemicals are used for what so it'll make no difference. In fact, I think if you had a lot of chemicals it would be worse than just having those two. There's a chance if the police just had a visit they would just take the KClO4 and Dark Al and say good day; blatantly this wouldn't work very well if you owned a lot of chemicals and they would have to pursue it.

 

As said, a person who owns a pyrotechnic display company in Victoria had someone check up on them for safety procedures and the guy that did it had not a clue how fireworks work (he thought you put paint in the mortars). What hopes does anyone else have? The ones that are trained in the bomb squad and such would only be familiar with some precursors for High Explosives and not firework pertaining items.

 

If you want to keep notes or a log, I suggest an electric copy that is encrypted so it is near impossible to access. That would be the best way to do it if you're worried. A clean work area and a safety equipment would go in your favor, at least they would have reasonable grounds that you are responsible and you knew what you were doing.

[mike_au]

That is a good idea actually. I started the log back in the day when I was dialing in BP and there was nothing mentioned in it that they wouldn't find anyway (a few bags of different meshes, milling times, etc). Moving it to an electronics version is something I should probably have done a long time ago.

[executi0n]

Who would have thought I would have found such an amazing supply of information. I love finding other Australian's that are happy to help others out with finding information they need.

 

I have been wanting to get into this kind of hobby for a long time, but never had any sources seeing as I live in a small town in SA, but now that I'll be moving to Adelaide this weekend, it may be a little easier. Plus the two online stores will come in handy.

 

Thanks to everyone who has posted in here, because it really has help a lot for a newbie such as myself. I hope to be able to stick around the forums more and maybe even start contributing myself one day (but thats probably a loong time away lol), I think I'll need to learn all the basics and safety info for now.

[dagabu]

Everyone:

 

I need to send a 6# package to TBP from the States and the shipping is outlandish. Do any of you have a less expensive way to import from the states to you Aussies?

 

D

[scrappy]

Hey daqabu,

Unfortunately no there doesn't seem to be a cheaper postal route, we all cringe at the exorbitant price we all have to pay but if you want something bad enough then we pay it,

 

I'd like to also take this opertunity to say thanks for sharing those rockets in the report thread with us all, Man they are fantastic !!

Edited February 5, 2010 by scrappy