Hints and tips for Australians

[Novacastrian]

Hi fellow Australians. Just wanted to introduce myself and thought this would be the best thread to do so.

 

I have just started venturing into the world of pyrotechnics, starting with smoke flares then onto sugar rocket motors (still at the test stage at the moment as i don't like to rush these things) and have had some good results so far. Also started making BP which seems to perfom quite well in some gerbs that i have been experimenting with (BP-Kno3-S-Al) comp. I have the advantage of being in the engineering business and having lathes and mills at my disposal (worked on them for about 18 years).

 

I have a few questions, first is in regards to ball mills. Has anyone got plans for the building of these? I could design my own but if i can save the hassle it would be great! Next is probably a no brainer but i thought i would ask anyway. Is it possible to use copper tube as the case for gerbs? I was thinking about lining the inside with carboard (actually have one made here, not rammed yet) and using that to ram my comp into. Are there any spark issues here? I use bentonite as plugs/chokes. These in theory could be re-useable.

 

Next questions is in regard to copper powder/shavings in gerb comps. I know copper carbonates are used for blue colour but can one just use the shavings/powder for colour/spark effects as one can use Aluminium or Titanium? I have searched the net for answers in regard to this but can't seem to find anything. This probably means i am barking up the wrong tree!

 

Anyway i could babble on but i don't want to bore you. Safety is my number one concern so if i ever raise your suspicions that i may blow myself up please say so. I am trying to read as much as possible to keep my limbs intact so if anyone has any advice throw it my way.

 

Also if anyone needs any tooling made pm and i will see what i can do.

 

Thanks everyone and i look forward to being a productive part of this "secret" society of pyro's in oz. My lips are sealed and mum is the word.

 

Scooter

 

 

Edit: Just remembered, i am after some visco. If anyone can help in that regard i would be forever grateful and would be willing to machine up some tooling for you for no cost. I am going to be pursuing black match but visco would make my life a lot easier. Cheers.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Novacastrian

[jessoman]

Hi there Scooter/Nova,

 

Welcome mate.

 

The hardest thing in your mill would probably be finding the motor, for you. Manufacturing something with the tools you have on hand should be no trouble at all(you lucky bugger with access to tools). If you want to make a small 200gram mill and windscreen wiper connected to a power supply will do. Hang out on YouTube and the forums and you'll get the idea if designs. If you want a video of my primitive ( functional ) wooden mill for ideas, pm me.

 

I'm new to joining the forums but I have been reading for many years. I never had anything to contribute and feared annoying people. However, I joined to find others who are like-minded and share what I'm doing.

 

With the fuse thing, you can do a lot with black match and spolettes. Or maybe if your super keen make a machine.

 

Pleased to meet you look forward to hearing more!

 

Jess

[Gunzway]

I have a few questions, first is in regards to ball mills. Has anyone got plans for the building of these? I could design my own but if i can save the hassle it would be great!

The concept of a ball mill is simple, optimisation has a bit more to it. Lloyd Sponenborough has a very detailed book on the matter of ball mills and it's worth every dollar. Considering it is also very cheap considering it is a niche topic. As for the design, just make sure that the motor is separated from the jars. Always remotely activate/deactivate the mill from a distance, and ideally have it in a bunker. It's easy to take short-cuts since we are operating off the radar and we are screwed regardless of following regulations or not, but just for the safety of ourselves, other people, property and so we can quietly go about our hobby -- it's better to up the ante and be even more strict on safety.

I'd go with a very reliable motor that is thermally protected. Aussiesapphire is an online retailer that sells motors, pulleys and gear more suited for rock tumbling. Rock tumblers do work, but are poorly optimised for our purposes but they still do the job despite being less efficient and more expensive. I do like their motor supplies even though they are expensive. You want a motor that has enough HP to handle the job depending on how big your ball mill will be and is reliable.

I like the idea of using commercial jars such as from Thumlers Tumblers which are rubber lined.

Plenty of information out there. Passfire and fireworking are great and worth the money. Further information can be found:

http://www.brianredmond.net/dwilliams/mill/mill.html

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/misc.html#ballmill

http://vk2zay.net/article/36

Next is probably a no brainer but i thought i would ask anyway. Is it possible to use copper tube as the case for gerbs? I was thinking about lining the inside with carboard (actually have one made here, not rammed yet) and using that to ram my comp into. Are there any spark issues here? I use bentonite as plugs/chokes. These in theory could be re-useable.

 

Possible? Probably. Safe? Definitely not.

 

We only use cardboard in this hobby and for good reasons. I'm sure it crosses many people's minds for how on earth could a peaceful, slow-burning gerb turn into a shrapnel throwing device. Different formulae, smaller nozzles, and too many variables to consider. Accidents do happen.

 

You can't predict what may happen and the last thing you want is metal involved in the equation. It's very easy to roll tubes with manila folder using an aluminum dowel and wood-glue. It IS expensive to buy tubes over-seas living in Australia, especially high quality ones. I have placed orders where shipping has cost me more than the tubes themselves but I'd rather do that day in and day out than to use metal. It's not a risk that you would find many people would take and I don't recommend it. Fair question, it gets asked often but it's not a solution.

 

Next questions is in regard to copper powder/shavings in gerb comps. I know copper carbonates are used for blue colour but can one just use the shavings/powder for colour/spark effects as one can use Aluminium or Titanium? I have searched the net for answers in regard to this but can't seem to find anything. This probably means i am barking up the wrong tree!

 

 

Funnily enough there was a thread yonks about on copper powder in gerbs that I seem to have posted in :S: http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/2474-copper-powder-fountains/

 

I can add more from not knowing much back then. I got some -325mesh copper powder and I used it for stars a while back (I used KClO₄ as the oxidizer). It wasn't bad, but it wasn't great. And for the price of copper, it definitely isn't great. Sylar's post knocked the nail on the head in my opinion. It's a bit of fun to experiment anyway, so just heed the advice of small-scale and it appears you might have access to a lot of shavings. Something as fundamentally simple as copper powder has surely not been overlooked, and since no-one uses it in industry or in the hobby world I think it's safe to say it's probably not going to be something special. But I could be wrong. And that's part of the fun.

[Novacastrian]

Thanks or the responses and welcome Jess and Gunzway.

 

Gunzway i did have the thought of cato's in the copper tube, i can safely put that idea to rest now. Also the absence of copper powder in any and all recipes led me to believe it may not be the norm but as you say experimenting is fun so i may do just that. I will check out the link you provided, cheers.

 

I'm looking forward to getting a good handle of gerbs before i try anything else, at the moment i am just using pvc conduit as casings, not ideal i know but it's all i have to work with for now, looks like i will be making my own tubes in the near future. I smashed (accidently) my phone not long ago and it is away being repaired but when i get it back i shall video some of my work so you guys can have a laugh at the noob!

 

Thanks again and stay safe.

[mike_au]

PVC is also strongly discouraged as it shatters under high pressure (unlike some other plastics which bend and tear). Either way, plastics aren't a good fit for gerb tubes, I would strongly suggest you get/make some cardboard tubes.

 

Passfire has a short article on building a ball mill which includes calculators for critical angle and gear ratios. PF has quite a few good articles and is probably worth signing up for once, but once you have ready the back catalogues IMHO it isn't worth renewing (the forum tends to be full of pissing contests and politics).

 

Be careful with windscreen wiper motors, some of them at least are designed to be cooled by the rain flowing over them and run quite hot when dry. If money isn't an issue and you want to do it right the first time, I would suggest a 1/4 HP TEFC (you could go to 1/2 or even 3/4 hp if you wanted, but my 1/4 will happily turn 3kg of powder and 10kg of lead). A Teco or Brook Crompton shouldn't set you back much more than $200 (probably less if you can get trade pricing).

[Novacastrian]

Cheers Mike, i have signed up to PF but am still waiting for paypal to process the payment.

 

I will try and glean as much as i can from there so i don't have to sign up again! I scored some A3 paper so i will be rolling my tubes out of that from now on.

About 1/4" wall thickness should be enough shouldn't it? I guess i will find out soon enough.

[Mumbles]

There are a handful of formulas using copper powder. The most complete collection I know of it posted on skylighter.

 

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/copper-green-blue-fireworks-stars.asp#new

[Mumbles]

This goes for everyone. You're better off annoying people a little bit with questions and trying to get advice, than trying to do it on your own and making crucial mistakes. You'll be much safer and progress much more proficiently in the long run. As long as it's obvious that you have your head on straight and are doing some reading and research on your own, most members here will have no problem answering your questions or pointing you in the right direction.

 

I'm becoming increasingly less impressed with youtube. The amount of poor, questionable, and half-assed information is starting to overwhelm the good. Take anything you see or learn there with a grain of salt, and cross reference it with something more reliable.

 

 

Hi there Scooter/Nova,

Welcome mate.

The hardest thing in your mill would probably be finding the motor, for you. Manufacturing something with the tools you have on hand should be no trouble at all(you lucky bugger with access to tools). If you want to make a small 200gram mill and windscreen wiper connected to a power supply will do. Hang out on YouTube and the forums and you'll get the idea if designs. If you want a video of my primitive ( functional ) wooden mill for ideas, pm me.

I'm new to joining the forums but I have been reading for many years. I never had anything to contribute and feared annoying people. However, I joined to find others who are like-minded and share what I'm doing.

With the fuse thing, you can do a lot with black match and spolettes. Or maybe if your super keen make a machine.

Pleased to meet you look forward to hearing more!

Jess

[Novacastrian]

Thanks Mumbles. I will check out the skylighter link, i have already printed off a bunch of stuff from there and find it to be interesting a very helpful. I failed to find the copper compositions though!

 

I hear you about youtube as well, my name on there is Yuck Foutube. Many people doing crazy things with Hexamine HE and Flash crackers, if i were younger than i probably would have been one of them. Alas two kids and a few more years later i have gained a healthy respect for what not to do.

 

One question for you if i may about time fuse, is it possible to make a reliable version? i wouldn't mind practising for when the day comes that i want to make some aerials (in the distant future . I have been experimenting with black match lately but am still trying to find a source of cotton twine that is acceptable.

 

Edit: I am also trying to stay away from chlorates and perchlorates. Will this be much of a limiting factor in the hobby? I notice a lot of compositions utilise these and would like to know in your opinion if the results obtained without the use of chlorates are still acceptable. I just want to go about it as safe as possible.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Novacastrian

[Mumbles]

Depending on your application, you might want to look into spolettes for timing various things. These are basically universally obtainable being essentially a small tube rammed with a known length of BP. They not as convenient, but will suffice for at least 95+% of timing applications.

 

You can make a huge variety of items without relying upon the use of perchlorates or chlorates. Your color pallet will generally restricted to whites, yellows and oranges if you stick to potassium nitrate. You'll of course have a huge variety of streamers, glitters, and other tailed effects without relying upon perchlorates or chlorates. If you're willing to use barium nitrate and strontium nitrate you can expand into all hues of green and red. It'll be mainly blue that will be troublesome. Purple can be done without it. The formulas I use for reds, greens, and violets do benefit from some small amount of perchlorate (

[Novacastrian]

Barium Nitrate and Strontium Nitrate don't worry me as much, in fact i have a kg of Ba(NO3)2 at hand (have not used it yet) and a kg of SR(NO3)2 on order that should get here pretty soon. I will look into clorates in the future maybe. As for the spolettes i will have to research them as i have now only learnt of their use thanks to you. Does one add retardant to the BP or just use a slower burning BP?

 

In being most interested in fountains/gerbs at the moment could i ask you for a proven recipe to produce a green and a red composition? I have recipes here however i would prefer to use something that has been proven by someone with experience.

 

I have been making "normal" gerbs with just BP, charcoal and aluminium with varying results, last nights effort was spectacular. The gerb produced sparks/glitter up to about 25 feet whilst chuffing every second or so burning for about 7 seconds then catoed with style! I have had more success with this recipe but was tweaking the amount of Al to see if i could produce more effect. Next in line i would like to try the Better Pearl Glitter composition and the D-1. Does the Better Pearl obtain a green colour at all or is the Ba(NO3)2 in there just for oxidisation?

 

Please excuse me writing out the proper chemical term for things as well, i find it helps me remember what they are better.

Cheers.

[taiwanluthiers]

No, use the same bp you normally use for lift when making spoolettes. You don't want to use anything too slow because it will make the time delay too long, leading to a shell that explodes on the ground. You don't want the spoolette to be too short (as in too little composition), otherwise the lift gas could break the spoolette, leading to flowerpot. So you typically use a fast bp and make them at least 1" long. This should give a time delay of around 2.5 seconds (depends on shell size of course, but I've found the delay to be 1 second per cm. DO NOT take my word for it, test it before using them!!)

 

Barium nitrate only produces green when the flame is very hot, and a chlorine donor is present. Otherwise you get a really bright white. Also strontium nitrate based comps can be hygroscopic. I know there's always purity and stuff but when water bound and round, they are a little hard to light. Parlon binding them seems to protect the stars against moisture.

[Novacastrian]

Thankyou friend. What is the most commonly used chlorine donor for chlorate free comps?

[leedrill]

parlon or pvc powder

[jl88]

Hey guys. Looking at getting some nept tubes soon and was wondering if any one wanted to do a group buy? I live in Melbourne Australia and shipping is the biggest killer. We could break them up here and ship them on. Looking for 1lb and 3lb tubes personally.

[jessoman]

Ah wish I had have received the above post earlier. Just put in a order for a few lots of tubes with hobbyhorse.

[DasKapital]

Damn it! Hope I haven't missed out on tubes again...

[jessoman]

I got enough for 160 1lbers mate. So enough to share

[jessoman]

Actually, I haven't confirmed the order. Shipping etc. If anyone wants some more I can ship more together. Going to ship here Fedex, so it's quicker. Bit more expensive, but I only have a few tubes left and I don't want to spend time just on rolling at the moment. It's driving me a bit crazy.

Edited February 3, 2014 by jessoman

[DasKapital]

Saweeeet!! Pm me some details bud.

[ausfire]

Wow, has been a long time since I've been here! Was just curious to see how many of you guys are still into the hobby? I was right into it 3 or so years ago but after starting university lost the time and consequently lost contact with a lot of the friends I had made, would be great to hear from some of you again. It was this forum that fueled my interest in electrolytic cells and ultimately has me studying what I am now, glad to see it’s still going strong!

[jessoman]

I'm still here mate and obsessed as ever. I tell you uni and pyro aren't compatible haha. What are you into? Where in aus are you?

[ausfire]

Yeah unfortunately not. I had stopped just as I was starting to experiment with salicylate fuels but had been making benzo, BP and a few hybrid motors for a while. Also made a few shells and other devices although the rockets seemed to interest me the most. I’m from Brisbane, what about yourself?

[leedrill]

We might have to try to rekindle the passion ausfire

[jessoman]

Ausfire, I'm just south of brissy an hr.

Leedrill where have you been? Are you out of it? I miss my pyro buddy!

We should all light some fuses!

Edited June 10, 2014 by jessoman