frogy Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 I know there are many threads from noobs asking "Where do I get Stump remover!?!?!", "How do I get\make charcoal?!?!?", and other similar, easily googled\found questions... This thread is different. I would like to dedicate this thread to bulk, cheap chemicals... Or small-order chemicals that are as cheap as their bulk counterparts... For example:Say Red Gum is commonly around $10/lb.In this thread...Posting Red Gum for 50 pounds @ $10/lb. would be wrong, although it is bulk, it is still regular price... Posting Red Gum for 50 pounds @ 8/lb. would be correct...alsoPosting Reg Gum for 5 pounds @ 8/lb. would be correct... Posting Etiquette:Please make the chemical you are posting about bolded and underlined...Example:Fe2O3:10 pounds at $1.40 /lb. @ Ohio Ceramics. CuO:10 pounds at $6.25 /lb. @ Ohio Ceramics. To start this off. I would like to ask for some bulk supplies of KNO3...Or at least some brands\N-P-K I can ask for. So far I know ofKNO3:Champion brand: 13.75-0-46Hafia: Multi-K: 13.5-0.46.2 Currently I can only find 1.5 cans of Hi-Yield for $3.99... $2.66/lb. isn't horrid, but when you can get it for $0.50/lb. it is... Can anyone point me to somewhere I can order KNO3, or drive to (near Ohio); I would like to order 50-100 pounds...
Swede Posted April 9, 2008 Posted April 9, 2008 I think it's going to be tough to recommend chemicals in large quantites, like 50 lb sacks, because it varies by location, or the shipping is always an issue. KNO3 in the U.S. is an odd thing. At least in Texas, all the big-box stores (Lowe's, HD, etc) carry only stump remover, and it seems to hover around $5 to $6 per lb! I've never found it as a 50 lb sack. Feed and nursery stores can be hit or miss. At a local nursery, I found several 5 pound sacks of what appeared to be very pure KNO3, sugar-consistency, priced at $6. The ziploc sacks were obviously prepared by store employees. I asked if they had any larger bags available - they said "no" - so I bought all they had, which was around 4 sacks. No one batted an eye. It's frustrating. It would be very nice to find one of those 50 lb sacks of Champion or Hafia. Perhaps one can talk a nursery into ordering a sack for you.
tentacles Posted April 9, 2008 Posted April 9, 2008 Swede: I'm not sure this is really the thread for this kind of discussion, but check with fertilizer dealers, *that* is where you get sacks of KNO3.. Your biggest problem would be getting them to deal with such a SMALL quantity. They'd rather sell you a pallet or two. Places like lesco, or a co-op. The companies that make the KNO3, haifa, champion, etc also have distributor/dealer locators on their sites. There is certainly plenty of information in other threads on locating big bags of KNO3.
frogy Posted April 9, 2008 Author Posted April 9, 2008 Sorry I didn't post here... I actually just received 50 pounds of KNO3 http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1182/champion50lbbagjpgnf0.th.jpg Out the door for <$20.... http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4550/championkno3prillsjpgmw0.th.jpg
ST1DinOH Posted April 9, 2008 Posted April 9, 2008 Sorry I didn't post here... I actually just received 50 pounds of KNO3 http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1182/champion50lbbagjpgnf0.th.jpg Out the door for <$20.... http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4550/championkno3prillsjpgmw0.th.jpg wow! nice deal. where does a person in NW ohio get something like that.
KinneticEnergy Posted April 9, 2008 Posted April 9, 2008 I got a 50lb bag of kno3 from champion at my local Grangettos.Around $25 IIRC. Pics: http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/Bigelbach/IMG_2390.jpghttp://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/Bigelbach/IMG_2389.jpghttp://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/Bigelbach/IMG_2387.jpgI also got a 50lb bag of bentonite clay for $12, Ill post pics of that soon. 1
ST1DinOH Posted April 9, 2008 Posted April 9, 2008 ok i'm seeing "greenhouse grade" slapped all over thoes bags... what purity is this? if it's not %100 is there anything else floating around in there to be concerned with?
KinneticEnergy Posted April 9, 2008 Posted April 9, 2008 I think it's around 99%, I'll check the bags for exact purity when i get the chance.
RubenE Posted April 9, 2008 Posted April 9, 2008 The one I use is called "Krista-K Plus", and it is around 96% pure. They sell it powdered in 50lb bags for 30$ over the counter.
psyco_1322 Posted April 10, 2008 Posted April 10, 2008 I bought a 50lb bag of GG Multi-K at the convention from a guy. I think it just has a little different ratio of nuetrients, but it works just fine for everything I use it for, which has being about everything recently. I looked at multi-k's site yesterday. They have some technical grade KNO3 for use in things like pyro, so says the site. Wonder if that would cost much more. I dont think there would be much difference.
pyromaster7500 Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 (edited) hi guys, i havent posted much since ive been on the forum but i have been doing some pyro every now and then, over the years ive built up a big stock of chemicals, but now im at uni and ive finished with pyro and i want to sell all my chemicals.. i woudnt mind if a person came and took it all in exchange for some money.. that would save me time and hassle, i live in kent rochester me2, if anyone is interested in buying all of the following off me (or at least some of it) please let me know. Also if its in the wrong thread.. my apologies i dont have privelages to start my own. the list is as follows:sodium benzoate 1kgcopper carbonate 1kgstrontium carbonate 400gfine iron filings 500giron oxide LR 400gzinc powder 300gmagnalium 50:50 .. 50gsulphur 500gvisco fuse waterproof 1/8 700m of itv fast bruning fuse approx 15mpurple burning fuse 15mgreen burning fuse 15mred burning fuse 15m1/16 inch visco 10mbarium chloride 500gbarium carbonate 200g8kg fine dark german aluminium powder (3 micron)99% purity 5kg potassium chlorate99% purity 5kg 80 micron magnesium powder (uncoated)5kg barium nitrate 99%100g soluble glutinous rise starch (SGRS))100g accroides resin1L nitrocellulose5kg Strontium nitrate3kg potassium nitrateball mill (from manchester minerals)http://www.manchesterminerals.co.uk/acatalog/Tumbling_Machines.htmlTUMBLER 900gm BEACH +BARREL(for stone)also i have ceramic milling media from inoxia http://www.inoxia.co.uk/rw/product/82.aspxi also have 1kg of very fine magneisum powderand another 1kg of more carse mg powderi also have many many shells and mortars, also have many tubes (mainly 3/4 id)i also have the walters rocket set for 3/4ID and 71/2 inch long rockets as i have said this is not exactly an advertisment but if anyone is interested please message me or email on pyromaster@hotmail.co.uki have many pictures of both chemicals and shells tubes etc. so dont hesitate to ask. my email is pyromaster@hotmail.co.uk thank you very much Edited July 25, 2008 by pyromaster7500
frogy Posted July 25, 2008 Author Posted July 25, 2008 99% purity 5kg 80 micron magnesium powder (uncoated)i also have 1kg of very fine magneisum powderand another 1kg of more carse mg powderi also have many many shells and mortars, also have many tubes (mainly 3/4 id)i also have the walters rocket set for 3/4ID and 1/2 inch long rockets as i have said this is not exactly an advertisment but if anyone is interested please message me or email on pyromaster@hotmail.co.uki have many pictures of both chemicals and shells tubes etc. so dont hesitate to ask. my email is pyromaster@hotmail.co.uk thank you very much You make me want to cry... All that Mg in a different country... I also wouldn't mind the fuse and Zinc...
TheSidewinder Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Pyromaster, with 7 posts you SHOULD be able to start your own thread. But sales are to be done in The Agora, posting to which is moderated (i.e. won't show up until mod-approved), and not in this or other threads. Please make a post in The Agora. It will be reviewed. Note that you MUST follow all shipping regulations, from wherever you live to wherever you're shipping it. If we reasonably believe you won't do that, your post will be rejected. You have 2 days to make such a post. If you don't I'm removing the above entry. This is not the appropriate Forum to advertise your sale, but I'll leave it until you make an Agora post.
Miech Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Nitroparis sells very cheap potassium perchlorate, about 2.70 euro per kilogram. They also have lots of other stuff, but you have to mail them for prices. I'm not sure wether they ship to the USA, but they do for Europe. As far as I know, all goods are sold in 10 or 25 kilogram quantities.
Mumbles Posted July 26, 2008 Posted July 26, 2008 Well, I know for a fact they ship to america. It was however done via a large company though. Where else do you think the "Spanish Perchlorate" came from that is actually from Brazil?
trag Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Well this thread didn't get very far. I was hoping to read where to buy affordable red gum as described in the example and like Swede I'm in Texas and finding fertilizer bags of KNO3 is challenging. I haven't called all the fertilizer stores in town but one I did call thought they could get me a 50 lb bag--for $73--but their distributer was out of stock. And many of them act fearful when you ask for KNO3. If I ask for 14-0-46 fertilizer they don't seem to know what I'm talking about. Sigh. Okay, I posted this elsewhere, but it looks more topical here. Carbon Black $1.50/lb in 50 lb bags in bead form + shipping. Shipping by Fed Ex Ground can add around $30 to the price. The manufacturer is Columbian Carbon and their distributer is D&F Distributing in Dallas, TX. The product name is Raven 2000. The sales person I spoke with was John Lawrence and his contact information is "John Lawrence" <jlawrence@dfdist.com> and 214-520-1334. The carbon black he has on hand is a shipment which was never paid for by the original customer. It's been in their warehouse since 2002, so may have absorbed moisture, but a pre-mill bake should solve that issue. According to CC's brochure the mean particle size is 18 nm and the percent volatiles is .9%. Sulfur ~$2/lb + shipping Sulfur I don't actually have enough experience to know if those are especially good prices, but they are certainly lower than buying at Skylighter, though I admire all the information they have on their website.
Mumbles Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 If you join passfire, there is actually a bulk red gum buy going on right now. It's the good stuff too, not the stuff from skylighter with all the crap. Expect to pay around $300 per 55lb bag. The price is actually about the same from when I got my bag of lesser quality red gum. It still works just fine, but I've heard reports of color improving drastically. I'm a bit confused by the "bead form" carbon black. The particle size is consistent with lampblack for sure though. You can't beat the price either. The last price I saw was at least double that if not more. The KNO3 price is reasonable considering the market. Prices have just skyrocketed. You're lucky to find it for less than $1 a pound anymore. The sulfur price is a bit high, but still very reasonable. I paid about $1 a pound a few years ago when I got mine.
trag Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 I'm a bit confused by the "bead form" carbon black. The particle size is consistent with lampblack for sure though. You can't beat the price either. The last price I saw was at least double that if not more. Yes, the bead form puzzled me too. More specifically, how it can have the specified particle size and still come in bead form. The bead form is for convenience. The powder is messy and so shipping and dispensing as beads is nice. I asked John about the bead form vs. particle size and he assured me that if I was ball milling, it would add enough energy to break the beads up into particles of the specified size. My guess is that the particle size is a function of the chemical structure of the carbon. In other words, the particles are made up of chemically linked carbon (crystalline structure?). While the beads are simply mechanically adhered particles. So mechanical milling breaks up the beads into its chemical form. Of course I could be wildly off... Regarding particle size. There is a dizzying variety of carbon blacks available with wildly variable particle sizes and structure qualities. If you want I will email you the PDF brochure from Columbian. I don't know what I'm doing, but based on what I read in David Sleeter's "Amateur Rocket Motor Making" book, I chose a variety with a small particle size (particle sizes up close to 100 nm are available) and a low volatile content. Sleeter claims that oil content (volatile content) slows the burn speed. I haven't reached the point where I'm doing any of my own experiments yet. I'm still tooling up. If carbon black were more easily available it might be interesting to do experiments with several varieties which differ greatly in specifications. The reports of black powder performance varying with charcoal type puzzles me. It should be possible to make black powder with more or less pure carbon--such as carbon black. If that does not work well because charcoal contains some beneficial contaminant, can we identify that contaminant or contaminants and add it in a controlled fashion? Does the resultant chemical structure (pure carbon, but atoms linked in different configurations) have a strong effect on the characteristics of the black powder? My specific interest is to make end burning estes-style rocket motors. I understand I need a pretty fast burning black powder for that to work properly. So, for now, I'm aiming at red gum and carbon black for fuel. The group-buy you mention is a tempting unit price, but 55 lbs is a huge amount for my uses. If I use 7% red gum, then 55 lbs would make 785 lbs of black powder, which is enough for 12,000 D size engines, 20,000 C size engines, 30,000 B size engines or 75,000 A engines. Since I manage to use maybe 30 engines per launch day if the wind doesn't come up too soon, I'd have to fly an awful lot of days.... Then again, it doesn't need to be a usable amount. It just needs to be cheaper than the alternative. Of course, making my own engines isn't a money saving venture anyway. By the time I tool up, I'd have to make and fly so many engines to actually save any money...but it sure looks like a fun endeavor.
Mumbles Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 You know, I've heard conflicting things about lampblack in comps. One says that replacing it in BP will work shitty. But replacing it in a very similar comp used for bursting large shells (70% perchlorate, 30% chacoal), drastically increases the power. The stuff sounds very interesting. The best of both worlds. You get the beautiful effect of lampblack, without all the mess and hassle(at least less). Someone mentioned your post on passfire. They seem to think that it's mechanically pressed into pellets, probably with a bit of a binder. Probably not all that dissimilar to pellets for pellet stoves, but less wax. It's common as an additive in plastics, so it must break up in the melt. If you get some, or anyone for that matter, I'd love to try it out. I'm running low on lampblack anyway, and all the comps I use it in get milled.
Mumbles Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 This may be of interest to you as well. From: John ReillyDate: 2/6/2009Subject: Re: Carbon Black/lampblackIt could be used instead of airfloat charcoal in many cases, depending on the type of lampblack. Some are made from the burning of petroleum oils, some from the burning of natural gas and some from wood soots. They vary in oil content and can be very frustrating when trying to find a good type for flower pot ''spur fire'' sparks.When I first started making skyrockets at age 11 or 12, I had no tooling and I used 1'' bore heavy convolute tubes from fabric stores with a saltpetre, lampblack and sulfur mix instead of trying to finely powder my own charcoal. Lampblack was available in 1# bags at any hardware or paint store back then for tinting oil based paints. The core was formed by damping the fuel and packing it into the casings and running a 5/16'' dowel down the center and the bulkhead and nozzle were made of 1'' lengths of 1'' dowel rod. The nozzle hole was drilled before insertion. Of course, they needed at least a week's drying befor shooting them. Using a 75/15/10 mix for fuel, the catos were so loud that they'd ring my ears.According to Shimizu, lampblack has a higher energy value than charcoal in a given mix.The main problems with lampblack are that is more expensive than charcoal and filthy to work with. It can be added (2 or 3%) to some perchlorate color star mixes instead of charcoal to aid in ignition. Potassium chlorate or perchlorate and lampblack stars can be very nice, as well as the charcoal streamer stars which contain an added percentage of lampblack to fill out and lengthen the tail. John
batbuddy Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 I was just reading this thread and thought that I would let you know that I found a website called chem4less.com that sells potassium nitrate forsome O.K. prices considering that it is mail order. i looks like you can get it in various quantities with the 20 Lb size working out to $1.95 per Lb. they also sell sulfur and charcoal. I have used their stuff and it is good quality. I make BP with it and shoot it so I know that the stuff works. They said on their site tha they ship to the whole U.S. I hope that this info is useful. Getting chemicals for cheap is getting harder and harder these days. I talked to a local fertilazer store that I used to get potassium nitrate from and they said they can't get it anymore because the last U.S. manufacturer went out of business several years ago, so anything that is currently sold is being imported.
Swede Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 Seattle Pottery has potassium nitrate for ~$1 per pound. When/if you order, order some bentonite and fine grog too (for nozzles) and maybe some strontium carbonate or similar... a sieve or two? Makes it look more like a ceramics order than a pyro order, which I think is a wise thing to do if you can afford it.
psyco_1322 Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 Swede, Have you ordered from them recently? I was told that the site had not been updated for some time and those prices where no long correct. Anyone have any info on Seattle Pottery?
tentacles Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 The current KNO3 price looks like what I paid a while back, when the website at the time said $69 or so for 100lbs. With shipping to ND it came to ~$165 for 100lbs, not terrible at the time for 100lbs of champion GG. And very fresh or well stored, not even the tiniest of lumps. It's all I had on that order and there were no questions or concerns other than the price being different.
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