BP Pipe Cannon

[zwdog922]

I was wondering what type of pipe I should use to launch a marble via black powder.

[zwdog922]

thx

[Frozentech]

I was wondering what type of pipe I should use to launch a marble via black powder.

Well, are you partial to galvanized or plain shrapnel ?

 

Seriously - my Dad tried that when he was 15, in 1954 or so. He almost died shooting a metal ball bearing from a pipe. My Grandmother heard the bang, and found him draped over the windowsill ( he was shooting at a tree outside the house ) bleeding. To this day he has black stippled powder tattooing and scarring from his left elbow to his shoulder.

 

Don't.

[zwdog922]

ok, whatever

[BPinthemorning]

"ok, whatever"??? Dude do you understand what he just said??? You WILL get hurt, and it is likely that you will die! Find a new hobby or get some common sense please! Don't give the government reasons to ban our hobby!

[zwdog922]

sorry

[TheSidewinder]

zwdog,

 

Believe it or not, we DO want you to enjoy pyrotechnics. And we also want you to enjoy then in a SAFE manner.

 

Your first few questions here were asking about things that are either complicated or dangerous. Salutes are both, and pipe cannons are all that and stupid besides.

 

BP Cannons, real ones that is, are relatively safe if used in a responsible manner. Using a piece of pipe to shoot a marble runs the risk of an explosion, as Frozentech graphically pointed out.

 

If you want to know about real pyrotechnics, start reading the forums. They're a wealth of good information. Start small and work up. You live a lot longer that way.

 

But if all you're interested in doing is blowing stuff up, rest assured you'll have a short career.

 

Think long and hard about safety. When it comes to pyrotechnics, that's all you've got between you and the hereafter.

[zwdog922]

ok, so do you think one from www.pyrocreations.com woul be good?

[Arthur]

Amateur pyro is very much a "Doing" hobby! BUT before you DO anyting please learn from others and their mistakes, otherwise you will be yet another statistic in support of the ANTI firework lobby, and that would hurt all of us.

 

If you have BP do a small experiment,

 

Take 100milligrammes and wrap it in a small sandwich bag- just one layer of polythene.

 

Take another 100mg and wrap it in two layers of brown paper

 

Take another 100mg and seal it into a card tube.

 

 

 

These will showyou the effect of containment! The first will burn with a flame, smoke and a slight noise.

the second will burn with a flash smoke and a crack,

the third will make a loud bang and some smoke, annoy the neighbours, and spread bits of card tube for several yards.

 

The steel tube you propose would be the next one in sequence. Big bang, annoy lots of folk and spread steel shrapnel into you and the surroundings.

 

In most jurisdictions of the world no-one knows or cares if you possess fireworks, UNIL you make bangs or cause damage or hurt someone. Call an ambulance and they WILL call the police if there is an obvious explosion site, -dont call the ambulance and you could be done for terrorist style offences.

 

We all work on the edge of the law! Please don't get "noticed" or hurt

[quicksilver]

To actually answer this question is a lengthy proposition and the safety warnings are more in order than going in depth with any sort of "how to" dialog. Using seamed pipe for anything like a "cannon" is simply not feasible nor could it ever be safe. The pipe is simply not made to withstand the pressure of a deflagerant burning in concert with a build up of gases necessary to propel an object. There are specific and understandable reason why.

 

Metal "pipe" has a seam in it that is actually a setup for a catastrophe. This is called Schedule 40. There is a Schedule 80, that does not have a seam and is extremely strong and has been used in SHORT sections for mortars. HOWEVER....those who do so are professional and have done extensive testing on what the lift charge should be. The concept here is that the "short" section of a mortar allows for LESS pressure to build within. The serious problem with "making a cannon" out of something like Schedule 80 pipe is that in it's construction. There is no REAL way to account for variances in pressure.

Notice a "REAL cannon" It is wider at the base. This obviously cannot be accomplish with some section of pipe. A short "mortar" is in the same realm as a plastic mortar and used to discharge a very light object. EVEN SO.....the welding needed to make sure there is some safety on a mortar-type affair would not be some light weight job. But rather someone who welds on an "x-ray level" and knows HOW to make the base steel "bite" into the tube.

 

What's more, there HAVE been modern cannons made for BP and they COST serious money. One time on the TV show "Mythbusters" a modern design was shown for a bit. The show was recorded and the scene was played back to view how this was accomplished. It appeared that it was MILLED from extremely large, high level (quality) steel. That milling alone may put that cannon in the "thousands of dollars" market. To do so any other way is quite frankly a setup for a serious negligent injury. It MAY be possible to find what level of BP could be used for a CERTAIN projectile in a VERY well made Schedule 80 Mortar but deviate from that and you would have a serious problem. You see there are SEVERAL issues that must be addressed. The strength of the "cannon" construction, the pressure that would alter with the charge. The pressure that would alter with the projectile, the pressure that would alter with the seal, etc, etc.....

It simply is not a quick, simple agenda of stuffing a sealed pipe with BP and pushing a projectile into it. Too many things could make it into a potential vicious problem.

Edited February 9, 2010 by quicksilver

[Cookieman]

ok, whatever

 

I have two words for you "PLEASE DONT" I don't mean to sound like a jerk,but take it from experience, I have a friend who went to Home Depot and bought himself 3/4"galvenized pipe and decieded to make himself a small cannon and use a chrome steel ball as the projectile.He then filled the pipe with Commercial BP and decided to ram it.He basicly had himself a pipe bomb and didn't even know it.He then put the chrome steel ball in the pipe and lit the BP. The pipe exploded, and shrapnel hit his leg.I heard about it the next day when I talked to him he told me that the the hospital called the police because anytime they think its an explosion or gunshot wound,they call the authorities and then all hell breaks loose.

[dagabu]

I have a 1" black powder canon that shoots a hand cast sabot that weighs 4oz. The pipe is high pressure Schedule 80 pipe 18" long. It is 14 years old this year and has shot around 1000 rounds in that time.

 

I use 20 grams of commercial BP (7FA) and it makes 100 yards to the target with no problems.

 

The breach (6") is constructed of 1-1/2" Schedule 80 pipe that is welded all around and a threaded breach plug is welded in as well. I use .308 shells that i cant reload any more and cut them down to 1/4" long, punch the primer and use a spring actuated firing pin to ignite the BP.

 

It sounds a whole more complicated then it really is. It just means that there is no fuse, just a primer and can and has been fired in the pouring rain.

 

The breach has a burst rating of over 200,000 psi. Oh, I use baby wipes for wadding.

 

D

Edited February 10, 2010 by dagabu

[NightHawkInLight]

That's perfectly fine. It's no secret that a BP cannon/rifle can be made out of the right materials - It's been done for hundreds of years. However recommending it be done is another matter. There is many an idiot out there who upon hearing that would take any old piece of rough pipe and use ammo that's bound to seize. Just because it can be done safely doesn't mean it will be safe for the next kid who stumbles on this thread and thinks his galvanized is sch 80.

[Ventsi]

If I was EVER to make such a thing I would inly use a pipe as thick as the diameter. And the back plug, IMHO is the most important part. Why? My grandfather had a friend in his teenage years who thought it would be fun to make such a cannon, according to the story he used some 1.5" thick steel pipe but ignored the importance of the way the plug was secured. Long story short, his friend ended up with a clean hole through his skull.

 

If you think you should make one of these using things around the yard, no. To make anything closely remote to a proper small scale cannon you need a true machine shop and machinist.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Ventsi

[dagabu]

That's perfectly fine. It's no secret that a BP cannon/rifle can be made out of the right materials - It's been done for hundreds of years. However recommending it be done is another matter. There is many an idiot out there who upon hearing that would take any old piece of rough pipe and use ammo that's bound to seize. Just because it can be done safely doesn't mean it will be safe for the next kid who stumbles on this thread and thinks his galvanized is sch 80.

 

Guys?

 

We rode in the back of the station wagon with no seat belts, we rode our bikes with no helmets (there were none back then) I took my 12 ga and my .22 to school and gave them to the receptionist to hold for me so I could hunt in the woods behind the school after school.

 

I invite everyone to make and test canons, fireworks etc. The difference between your reactions and mine is that I would rather teach safety then dissuade others from experimenting.

 

I know, I know, I knee jerk too, my fault, I am sorry but lets all learn to direct and not beat others down.

 

That said, there is a saying I have heard in Virginia when they reenact field battles and they are training new gunners. "Stand at a 45% angle to the breach, if the gun parts (blows up) you will survive, we have caskets for the fools that stand to the side and behind the guns."

 

The point being, barricade, use a safe field to test fire, use common sense and hurt no one in doing so.

 

D

[dagabu]

I was wondering what type of pipe I should use to launch a marble via black powder.

 

FYI- Have you ever seen a movie where the windshield takes bullets and glass flies everywhere? They use compressed air and glass marbles that are shot from the inside of the car at the wind shield. That glass is reduced to powder and sprays out.

 

It looks pretty cool on film but is nothing like real life, bullets go through clean, no powder.

 

Just saying

[xetap]

what type of pipe I should use to launch a marble via black powder.

I'd suggest a corncob pipe. Just don't inhale.

[jwitt]

This has little to do with "hobby-sized" cannon, and probably isn't what the original poster had in mind, but of possible historical interest, here's a place I stopped with my dad a decade or two ago:

 

Rome GA Cannon Lathe

 

Long story short, old-fashioned field pieces were cast and then turned on a lathe. A very big lathe.

 

I wish there were better pictures of the equipment- it is pretty interesting for those with a little machining experience.

 

Even these guys apparently had trouble making "safe" cannon.

 

Wikipedia says: "Even though the foundry's production of cannon had been halted by the Confederate government due to an investigation into improper manufacture of weapons at the facility, they continued output of other war-related materials, especially locomotives, attracted the attention of the Union Army and was a prime factor in the occupation of Rome by Sherman's troops in 1864.

 

On their way out of town at the end of the occupation, Sherman's troops burned the foundry facility to the ground, and attempted to dismantle the late using sledgehammers, with little success. The hammers marks are still visible today and the fire caused minimum damage to the lathe. The massive machine stayed in production until the mid 1960s."

[xetap]

It seems that there's a 'natural' progression that takes place once a person gets interested in energetic compounds, fireworks, etc.

 

One faction leans towards learning the basics first, then progressing through to a point where they find their true interests lie, then try to perfect that interest (rockets, aerial shells, fountains, whatever).

 

Another segment tends to short cut all the red tape and wants to cut to the chase, often w/disastrous results.

 

I chalk it up to the desire for instant gratification that's fostered by our current society, but that's another story.

 

While shooting marbles from a homemade BP cannon- constructed from questionable materials and methods- is a bad idea to those of us who've been around the block a few times, the idea to a noob may seem perfectly logical, given that on this same site he can read of golf ball cannons, potato cannons, report cannons, star guns, etc.

 

Hopefully the OP will take this as a friendly warning and will go on to become skilled in safe use of the comps, etc. that are found here. Otherwise, we all suffer. But him, mostly.

 

I would suggest to the OP that he take the time and read up on the subject, ask more questions and go into it armed w/as much info as you can find- there's very few things that can't be done safely.

 

He did the right thing be asking his question here, I just hope he's not turned off from the hobby as a result of the warnings he received- correct as they might have been. But if he WAS turned away by the cautions- this isn't the hobby for him, IMHO.

 

Just an opinion.

[quicksilver]

(snipped for brevity)

 

He did the right thing be asking his question here, I just hope he's not turned off from the hobby as a result of the warnings he received- correct as they might have been. But if he WAS turned away by the cautions- this isn't the hobby for him, IMHO.

 

Just an opinion.

 

 

This is a VERY important reply and carries with it some very significant issues that the OP (or anyone else) should give a good bit of thought to.

Perhaps the majority of people who find fireworks interesting DO dispell themselves into two broad camps. Those who READ, READ, READ and actually study appear to have less injuries & appear to stay with the hobby . Those who don't, unfortunately sling together all sorts of delagarants and make crude noise makers, get bored of one "size" and ascend the mountain of human parts gambling.

 

I had been a member of PGII and made a friend who was quite older than myself (he was in his 70's - I think). He told me he really only "made things that go bang". This, at first made me think this older fellow was a bit "unique" until I found me he STUDIED the TRADITIONAL method of making the "thousand unit cracker hexagons" (using bamboo tooling), Mandarin techniques for BP, VERY old fashoned red shredded paper crackers and a varieity of extremely old-generally highly dexterity-oriented fireworks with deep old Asian roots and techniques. This man could roll a cracker (like a cigarette) and tuck a hand made fuse in much less time than it takes to say it. He was extremely involved with "paper types" and grades adhesives and rockets of a type I had never seen before or since.

He had taken a "high-road" with the MOST elementry of fireaorks and found the ART that appeared to be lost to most. He explained techniques of safety working with Flash that not only made great sense but that I had not heard before; (weather conditions, working outside, developing a crude but extremely effective Ground for static that may have been used before Thomas Edison). He was also one of those who had a copy of the old 16mm black & white movie of Vietnamese making crackers with a forked chop stick and a type of fuse rolling that produced a very elegant, consistent fuse from rice paper.

 

In every sense he was using primitive materials that any school kid would be using but to a grand, fine old tradition. This was principally because he STUDIED & was fascinated by a niche' that VERY few Occidentals are even aware of. My point is that there is SO much to this hobby that can be safe and fun IF the individual allows himself to not be LAZY!

In fact, I would say that most injuries are NOT accidents. They are negligence perpetuated by intellectual laziness. Just as many people refuse to call a firearms injury an "accidental discharge" but use the term "Negligent Discharge": I believe in the same terminology.

 

There is NOTHING wrong with curiosity and the OP should not feel "put down" by asking questions - especially those that MAY have lead to a tragedy. The whole purpose of information exchanges is to learn what may be an unproductive idea (inefficient ways of manufacturing Perchlorates by using the wrong anodes / cathodes or possible serious nightmares like loosing a hand: metal enclosure).

 

The likelihood is that EVERYONE who has involved themselves in this hobby has at minimum had an idea that is better not acted upon.

An individual should actually be proud of finding that an idea is best left alone the smart way rather than through an experience with a sorry ending.

[layedbackkustomz]

i say just buy something that is properly made for the purpose. when i was in high school i had a friend who made a cannon that fired golf balls they would hold the pipe light a fuse and boom the ball went sailing. it was fine tell the ball got wedged and the cannon because a pipe bomb and blew his whole right side off. now it that seems F'ed up it is but when he got to the hospital the only surgion quaifidy to operate on him was his own father. he died under his fathers knife.-LBK-

[TigerTail]

I had a little cannon in mind for a future project but this thread scared me. Does it sound fine if I use a 3/4" brass rod, drill a 6 mm hole in its center and fire 0.22" lead/steel shots?

[dagabu]

I had a little cannon in mind for a future project but this thread scared me. Does it sound fine if I use a 3/4" brass rod, drill a 6 mm hole in its center and fire 0.22" lead/steel shots?

 

It very much depends on the amount and type of powder used. Brass is probably one of the best materials to use though. I would keep the charge of FFFFFFFA to 5 grains and build up slowly to no more then 7 grains.

 

-dag

[TigerTail]

One stupid question : Does pulverone, granulated using a screen classify as 7FA(or any grade for that matter), or does it have to be corned to be called so?

 

Another stupid question : What would be the difference if I use a finer or coarser grade? I mean how do the grades make a difference at all? Why is coarser grade preferred for larger shells and finer for smaller?

 

Thanks.

[dagabu]

WHEW!!! Man, when you ask a question, you really ask a question!

 

No stupid questions here but lets lay out nomenclature so we are all on the same page. Pulverone is a scratch mix that is bound with dextrine and water and run through a screen. It simply means "large powder". From a year ago:

 

"OK,

 

Its an age old question so I will take it from Mike Swisher, the oldest living pyro-nut... OK, not the oldest but perhaps the smartest.

 

Starting at the least reactive and working up to the most difficult to make:

 

1. Green Meal or Rough Mix

-Green meal is the simple combination or all three pre-ground chemicals, typically 75:15:10.

 

2. Pulverone

-Pulverone is the mixture of all three chemicals plus 2-4% dextrine, adding enough boiling water to make a cohesive (will stick together in a ball) ball of the comp and then is pushed through a screen, usually a 3 mesh, and left to dry half way and then re-screened.

 

3. Milled BP

-Milled powder is made by milling all three chems together in a ball mill until a homogeneous mixture is created. With the addition of 2-4% dextrin and cool water, the cohesive ball is mad and is pushed through a screen just like pulverone. The performance is much greater then the pulverone and can be much greater then commercial BP.

 

4. Pressed and Corned Black Powder.

-Pressed and corned black powder is the standard BP that you find in cans all over the world. It is made by following the same procedures as the milled BP but instead of adding dextrin, just a small amount of water is added, the BP is pressed into pucks to 1.7g per cc and then the pucks are broken and screened into different meshes. Some BP is them tumbled with graphite to make it flow better.

 

TERMS:

 

-Ricing: To push the ball through a screen when wet.

-Granulating: See ricing.

-Corning: Breaking up pressed pucks of BP into smaller pieces of BP.

-Meal-D: Small pieces of broken BP pucks that are smaller then 7FA, also called Meal Dust by some, but that is a whole other conversation..."

 

For classification sake, FG is corned and glazed with graphite. Pulverone is rough mix and is made into large grains.

 

As far as the difference between the large grains and small grains burning rate goes, the surface area has a lot to do with it as well as flame propagation through the pile. Small grains allow the fire to travel very quickly between the grains and the surface area is great compared with the mass so the pile burns faster and gives more of a bang compared with larger grains that have less surface area compared to its mass and have allow for a slower flame propagation giving it more of a whoomp or a push instead of a bang.

 

The larger powder pushes the shell out of the mortar while the smaller powder shoots a smaller shell out of the mortar like a bullet.

 

-dag

Edited July 20, 2011 by dagabu