bp inconsistant?

[import_racer1]

Hey I made some bp, and when testing it out it needed a hotter flame than usual, and when looked at it doesn't look as though everything is mixed properly, any ideas on how to get things to blend better for my next attempt? Aswell does sodium nitrate work better than kno3?

[jacob]

You did ball mill it for a good while right?, for an optimized mill you will probablly need to let it go for atleast 3 hours, if it doesn't even look like it's mixed it's nowhere near done enough.

 

As far as BP goes Sodium Nitrate is inferior to Potassium.

 

I'm sure others can chime in on this .

[Mumbles]

Well, firstly, how did you make it?

 

If ball milled you should probably mill it longer.

 

If hand mixed, you could grind your chemicals fine and mix more.

 

If CIA method, you could again grind the chemicals finer, and precipitate it faster.

 

No, Sodium nitrate will not preform better than KNO3.

[import_racer1]

I hand mixed it. I am unsure how to ball mill it, anyone give any insight on this? Thanks for the replies so far, gonna try again tonight when I get time.

[InRainbows]

Sodium Nitrate will perform worse most of the time because it's extremely hygroscopic, you'd be better off using KNO3. Also, it can be made into potassium nitrate or barium nitrate quite easily I've heard.

[Bonny]

I hand mixed it.

That's the first problem. You WILL need a ball mill to make good reliable BP. Maybe the CIA method may work for you, but IMO it's messy and a hassle. Look around for info on ball mills and milling...

You could start here:

http://www.pyroguide.com/index.php?title=Ball_mill

[Arthur]

Repeatability is important. Accurate weighing of a known compound is a good start. If it looks as if it isn't mixed, then it isn't.

 

Potassium is the salt of choice because K salts are not hygroscopic like sodium salts. Kno3 BP will normally exist at 1 - 1.6% moisture and this performs OK. Sodium Nitrate BP will exist at 5+% moisture and the performance will suffer proportionally to the added moisture. Sometimes Sodium Nitrate BP used to be made into graphite glased pucks to keep moisture out.

[import_racer1]

What is the CIA method consist of? I don't think I'm able to get a ball mill anytime soon. I have seen people use coffee grinders to thin it and blend it, is this efficient at all? Again thanks for the input.

[cplmac]

Just out of curiosity, what was your mix and ratios? I suspect that not knowing about the ball mill could also mean your might not have been right with the formula and ratios.

[import_racer1]

if i remember correctly, 76%kno3 14%carbon and 10% S Other variations welcome, anybody know where to order a cheap 1lb ball mill online?

[Mumbles]

I sure hope that is by mass. All pyrotechnic mixtures, unless otherwise mentioned are by mass.

 

There are some cheap ball mills on the market as rock tumblers. They're not very fast or efficient, but they get the job done given enough time. You'll also have to purchase some media for it. I'd suggest 1/2" lead balls, sometimes called 50 caliber. You will need approximately 150-200. You will be able to make approximately 200g of black powder at a time in one of this size, and it takes approximately 8-12 hours.

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/disp...temnumber=46376

 

Additionally you can build one. There are plans, pictures, and diagrams here as well as around the internet. There is really no wrong way to build one as long as it's safe, but there are better ways than others. This method can be much cheaper if you have access to a cheap or extra continuous duty motor such as from a good fan or a washing machine. The motor is the most expensive part. The rest can usually be scrounged or improvised, except maybe the media.

[0nE.sh0t.kIll]

I found a 3 lb. ball mill, not rock tumbler for only $13 more than the rock tumbler so it won't take as long. But you'd have to find some media elsewhere.

 

http://www.cannonfuse.com/store/pc/viewPrd...4&idproduct=268

[Mumbles]

So what you're saying is that I can buy a bunch of rock tumblers, call them ball mills and they'll be more efficient and thus can sell for more? Interesting

 

 

The one from cannonfuse is no more efficient or better than the one from harbor freight. They are actually the exact same product if you take the time to actually look at them.

[InRainbows]

They both look exactly alike, and so does the one on pyrocreations.com . Are they all really the same?

[ST1DinOH]

anyone know if there'd be any advantage or disadvantage to ordering the dual tumbler from harbor freight?

 

besides the obvious "you can mill twice as much" awnser, i'm basicly asking if these two drums rotate/operate independantly of one another or if i'd have to use both drums at the same time.

 

in otherwords can i mill two different types of chems at once and be able to remove one of them and still have the other operate...

 

i'm probably going to buy one or the other with my birthday money.

[Mumbles]

Yes, they are exactly the same.

 

I have always wondered if the motor could support 2 fully charged mills in the dual jar configurations. The single barrel one seems a bit stressed as is. I believe Mormanman said he had issues with it. It is probably best to take all experiences with a grain of salt. There is always the chance of a lemon product, or user error.

 

They will rotate independantly, though may slide around a bit if both jars are not present. There is nothing saying that both jars have to be charged though.

 

I've been in the market for a larger mill. I was considering the 15lb one from pyrocreations. It's just about as cheap as anywhere else I can find (Thumbers Tumbler model , and comes stocked with media.

[justanotherpyro]

anyone know if there'd be any advantage or disadvantage to ordering the dual tumbler from harbor freight?

 

besides the obvious "you can mill twice as much" awnser, i'm basicly asking if these two drums rotate/operate independantly of one another or if i'd have to use both drums at the same time.

 

in otherwords can i mill two different types of chems at once and be able to remove one of them and still have the other operate...

 

i'm probably going to buy one or the other with my birthday money.

My homemade ball mill has bars that are long enough to hold several drums. The only problem I run into is when there is only one drum going, it slowly shifts to one side or the other. This is easily prevented by tilting the entire mill a little bit. So I think you should be fine.

[ST1DinOH]

well the way i look at it, eventually i'd like to be able to mill large batches. so the experience of the single having trouble is good to know.

 

buying the double and saving 5 bucks to be able to do 2x the bp at once is probably ideal. especially if i'll wind up needing the double just to propperly turn one drum full.

 

worse case scenario i can just fill one drum and let the other one stay empty. should be pleanty of power to handle one.

 

thanks again guys.

[qwezxc12]

I used a Lortone 33B, dual "3lb." capacity model:

http://www.lortone.com/images/33b.gif

I'd hazard that it uses better quality parts (motor, belt, etc) than the Harbor Freight knock-off and it couldn't run two properly charged barrels at the same time.

 

By properly charged, I mean 1/2 full of lead media, not pennies, glass marbles, gravel, or whatever crap people try to use to mill BP. The motor may have enough umph to do the job, but the O-ring belt can't provide enough tension to turn the weight of two charged barrels. It may be able to turn two barrels full of agate and polishing media, but not lead. Alumina milling media is lighter than lead so maybe it would work.

 

I modified my Lortone in two ways before building my own mill:

1) Add some friction tape to the drive shaft. It will increase it's grip on your barrel and due to the larger diameter, turn the barrel at a greater speed - as it is, the stock rotation speed is too slow...somewhere around 58rpm IIRC. Optimal speed for a 4" barrel is around 90rpm.

2) Slot the motor mounting holes so you can slide the motor away from the drive shaft pulley, increasing the tension on the belt. Now it won't slip when turning the barrel.

 

Even with these two mods, good BP still took 12 hours when using a hard charcoal like Cowboy brand. Softer, more reactive charcoals still took 6-8 hours to get a decent product.

[TheSidewinder]

RE: that Harbor Freight link posted above?

 

Yes, that is a plain old rock tumbler. And a poorly-made one as well. Personally, I'd stay away from it.

 

If you want to go this route, I'd strongly recommend a Lortone tumbler like qwezxc posted. They're built extremely well and will last a long time. The only replacement part you'll likely ever need is a belt, though mine hasn't needed one yet and it's 2+ years old. The current model (not sure how old it is) already has slotted motor mounts, so that particular mod qwezxc mentioned may not be necessary any more.

 

The least expensive one is the 3A with a single 3-pound barrel. $77 MSRP. You should be able to find it for $65 or less. It's well worth it.

 

I bought the Lorton QT66 with dual "6-pound" barrels. Knock on wood, but I've settled on a method that made some hellish hot BP last summer. And you're right, it takes longer with a rock tumbler. To keep the number of variables as small as possible, I simply mill *every* BP batch for either 12 or 24 hours. Using commercial airfloat or Cowboy brand luimp charcoal, it made good burst in 12 hours. Using the willow or yellow pine I got 2 years ago, with a 24-hour cycle, made one HOT batch of BP. Surprised me, actually.

 

It may be that the 6 series has a bigger motor, but I can fill both barrels with my media (I use Brass though, not Lead) and mix, and run for 24 hours no problem. Motor gets a bit warm, but no heat difference between using one and two barrels, so I think that's just how the motor works.

 

I see qwezxc has the 33B. The modifications he made sound great. My 66B already has a slotted mount, and it isn't near its limit of travel yet, so the belt will be good for quite some time I think.

 

Hadn't thought of increasing RPM with the friction tape and/or pulley change, but that will add additional strain to the motor. How much more, I can't say.

 

Of course, the other option is to build your own. A number of folks already have, and there's pics of them floating around here. If you invest $77 in raw parts and do it yourself, you'll get a mill that's a lot better than a rock tumbler, even a good one, for what you want to do.

 

Good luck.

[50AE]

If you don't have a ball mill or you can't buy, you can use a mortar and pestle.

The Pros :

-cheaper

-quick BP making

-simple

 

The Cons :

-needs human energy and a strong hand

-you can't grind much BP in same time (my maximum is 60gr)

-it becomes annoying (my opinion)

-needs soft charcoal (a hard one is difficult to grind)

 

If you can't find a ball mill and you maybe like to do some hand exercises , take the the mortar and pestle, it's a good alternative.

But if you want to make large quantities of BP in same time, without doing efforts, you should get a mill.

[Mumbles]

I also have my doubts if the product would be as consistent, or of as high quality as ball milling. Theres an article in one of the best of AFN books about making BP by mortar and pestle. I believe it was discovered that to make a BP with similar characteristics to that from a ball milled product it took somewhere in the vicinity of an hour of human grinding along with various wetting and wet grinding stages. I don't have it handy at the moment to check though. BAFN II I believe if anyone cares to look it up.

 

I get all the pyro exercise I need from spiking, pasting, and digging in mortars.

[Arthur]

The CIA method is to pulverise the Charcoal and sulphur in a blender or with a hammer, rollong pin etc. Then to dissolve the nitrate in a minimum of boiling water and stir into the dry solids (C + S) add alcohol to enable the water to be boiled off rapidly for the smallest crystal size. Then dry thoroughly and mix well.

--Does produce a rough BP. trying to force evaporate off the alcohol/water mix needs real care -not to blow the whole lot up.

 

 

Most beginners in the UK will pass the CIA method stage very quickly as the product is inferior to any milled product.

 

Get a medium size rock tumbler with a small drum and put some lead balls inside. You should bea able to mill 200g batches. Start with some charcoal, get a stock of 20 mesh to 200 mesh all sorted into jars, then start with sulphur - mill it to something fine. KNO3 tends to clump in the jar so crystals pour better than lumpy 200mesh!

 

milling the ingredients is a good way of getting sizes for different effects. Fine ingredients for BP can be damp milled to make a more intimately incorporated mix which performs better. The milled BP mix is then pressed into pucks and dried. The dried pucks are then corned (broken) into the particle size needed for the device to be made.

[50AE]

This is my blackpowder. First the charcoal and sulfur are grinded with the mortar and pestle, then added to a solution of water and potassium nitrate. Next, they are mixed until homogeneous and the solution is set on a hot plate to evaporate on a lower temperature than the ignition. Then evaporated, the BP is crushed and re-grinded for 5 minutes in the mortar.

 

The result is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTJsGbaXG58

And I thinks it's better than some ball milled blackpowders.

[Mumbles]

I can't definitively say better, but my milled BP is about the same quality. The grains or meal don't burn paper either.