SrNO3 from SrCO3 and NH4NO3 (dangers?)

[Stinger]

Hi

 

I can get 4 pounds of pure amoniumnitrate and 4 pounds of SrCO3 from

fertilizer/potteryshop.

 

I want to make SrNO3 from it:

Dissolving 160g NH4NO3 and 147g of SrCO3 in hot boilling water and cooking it until there is 100% pure SrNO3 left.

The only thing I am worrying about is the emission of ammonia.

 

Can people smell it over a very large distance, because I want to make it outside in my grandmas garden with a hotplate and a cooking pot.

 

If I use this amounts:

 

2NH4NO3+SrCO3 -----> SrNO3+NH42CO3

 

NH42CO3+heat(boilling water) ------> 2NH3+H20+CO2

 

Thats like 50l of ammonia.

 

Will I almost gas myself at the procedure, shouldn´t be in the near of the cooking pot or

is this way too much exxegerated?

 

If it sounds exxegerated, neither do I want to scare my grandma or the neighbours, nor my

parents.

Usually, I ask before making something dangerous (especially with toxic gasses),

so I want to hear your opinions.

Does someone here already use this method to get exotic nitrates from carbonates using ammoniumnitrate?

 

PS: I can´t get HNO3 easy, and my parents won´t allow me to work with strong acids.

 

Stinger

[Arthur]

A serious attempt to use 1M nitric acid would be better as the by-product would be CO2 -much easier to handle and dispose!

[oskarchem]

Yeah and it will probably be cheaper to make it with HNO3 1M because that is very dilute, and then how can you get pure NH4NO3 from fertiliser?! It is always coated with like CaCO3, for pratical reasons...

[Bonny]

I made a small batch of SrNO3 from SrCO3 and NH4NO3 last summer. It is very inefficient in terms of energy and time. To boil off all the ammonia took ages and lots of water. Not worthwhile unless you are desperate IMO.

See here for more info:

http://www.pyrosociety.org.uk/forum/index....rontium+nitrate

[Stinger]

Hi

 

 

It is very inefficient if I need to heat it very long ( 1hour is ok for me), like 2 hours.

So, then I´m forced to put the solution in the freezer to get ammoniumcarbonate out,

followed by strontiumnitrate

 

 

Stinger

[fizeau]

I agree with arthur, using HNO3 is better for your health and your neighbourhood. I produced sometimes NaNO3 in a similar way: NaOH+ NH4NO3, the emission of ammonia was always horrible, specially in the first hour. And it needs a lot of time. I cannot recommend this method for a garden.

[Bonny]

Hi

 

 

It is very inefficient if I need to heat it very long ( 1hour is ok for me), like 2 hours.

So, then I´m forced to put the solution in the freezer to get ammoniumcarbonate out,

followed by strontiumnitrate

 

 

Stinger

This needs heating for a long time. I only made maybe 50g or so of SrNO3 and I had to boil every night for 4 hours or more for maybe a week when I got home from work and continually add water.

Using HNO3 works well and is quite easy. Be sure to do a lot of reading first to keep safe and have all the proper safety gear.

[Arthur]

With this hobby it is important NOT to annoy the neighbours. Once they have "had enough" you have to move! or you get "visited" SO please be neighbour friendly.

 

Also be Pyro friendly NH4NO3 isn't easy for all to acquire and it will get less easy in the US if your Secure Ammonium Nitrate legislation is passed.

 

If you are careful then your NH4NO3 should be tradable against some Nitric acid of moderate strength. Considering shipping rules please.

[InRainbows]

I'd rather heat ammonium nitrate and pass the gasses through water, getting nitric acid with varying purity depending on the amount of water and ammonium nitrate. It'll turn all the water into nitric acid with ammonium nitrate dissolved in it, so no ammonia floating around stinking up your neighborhood or gassing you.

 

Then just pour the nitric acid on the SrCO3. Even dilute nitric acid converts it.

[Mumbles]

That method is unlikely to work very well. Depending on the temperature, you will get a decent amount of nitrous oxide instead of the desired nitric oxides (NO, NO2, N2O3, N2O4, desirably N2O5, etc) Additionally, you'll have ammonia passing through the water and neutralizing the acid probably faster than it's formed.

 

It might be worth while to digest the barium/strontium carbonate with acid(HCl or even vinegar), and reprecipitate it as the hydroxide via NaOH or KOH, or even buy the hydroxide. The ammonium hydroxide decomposes a lot faster in boiling water, and will even do so a great deal at room temperature. Again, it has the same problems with the stink and poisonousness.

 

The best way to do this would be to set up a reflux type of boiling flask, and lead the top of it out into an acidic solution. The ammonia will escape out the top while the water is recondensed for the most part back to the reaction.

[InRainbows]

Mumbles, do you know what nitrogen-oxygen compounds it will form at what temperatures?

[GraafVaag]

I've never had problems making Ba(NO3)2 and Sr(NO3)2 using nitric acid.

 

I diluted it to +- 25%, and then slowly added carbonate. There's much CO2 bubbles, so don't add too much, since it will pour over the edge.

 

I always used little exess carbonate, so all the acid reacted.

You'll then have a milky liquid, with some carbonate, some precipated nitrate (in case barium carb was used) and some other impurities that might have been present in your carbonate.

 

Well, this is put in the fridge, to cool down to approx. 1*C. Now almost all the bariumnitrate wil precipate. Filter this, and you've got raw bariumnitrate.

 

Next thing to do is rinsing the bariumnitrate with ice cold water. This removes some of the remaining acid, if present.

 

After this, I usually dissolve the bariumnitrate in as less as possible boiling water. This is filtered to get the non-dissolving carbonate out, and then again cooled down. If you're curious, check the pH at this point. (before cooling) It usually is somewhere around 5 here, which means 0.00001 mole H3O+ for every liter. That's OK to me. If you don't like it, try adding the same amount of ammonia..

 

I'm having a layer of nice shiny white crystals at this point. (After cooling) Filter, rinse, and dry. They're pure enough to use in pyro.

 

For strontium, the process is almost the same. Only the last part changes. Even at 1*C, Strontium Nitrate dissolves much better than Barium Nitrate, so I usually boil down the filtrate somewhat (50% or so).

Yes, I mean the still-hot liquid that just passed your filter.

 

That's how I did it, before I was rich enough to buy the nitrates pure lol.. I have never seen difference between my own product, and the bought thingy..

Good Luck!

 

EDIT

Things to mention:

Don't neutralize the solution with sodium-containing salts. You can guess why.

All the leftovers should be collected, and handed in as heavy metal containing solution. A bit odd, since you're shooting ounces of strontium and barium in the air, but I do it anyway.

I mentioned 25% nitric acid, however please remember that even 5% will do, but there'll be so much water that you'll lose some more nitrate in the first precipating part. (Since there's more that stays dissolved)

 

Last thingy, when you cooled it down well every time, you can get very close to theoretical yield. My highest yield was 92%.

[Bonny]

I've done it quite similar. But, there's no way I'm putting a solution like that (especially barium) anywhere near my fridge... or even inside the house for that matter until its in a solid form and in a container.

 

I add carbonate until the rxn is finished, then add some more. I allow the solution to settle, and siphon the clear liquid off (with a turkey baster), then filter it. I boil off most of the water, allow to cool and collect the crystals. Then I top water up in original the solution stir, wait for it to settle and repeat. It takes LOTS of water with the barium nitrate as the solubility is so low.

 

Once finished I dry the crystals, mill them, and dry again as water is trapped inside the crystals. This also helped get rid of some of the H2S stench from the impurities in the ceramic grade BaCO3 I use.