whitefox77 Posted January 12, 2008 Posted January 12, 2008 So I ordered some Sodium Silicate from Skylighter for use in making fire resistant paper tubes, but it came with no instructions. Their site says "... for making paper tubes fire resistant. Thin with water." Can anyone tell me how to use this to make fire resistant paper tubes? And specifically how much water do I thin this with? This seems to be one of those things "everyone knows", so no one ever thinks to explain.
TheSidewinder Posted January 12, 2008 Posted January 12, 2008 Well, VERY briefly, thin it about 50-50 with water making sure it's well-mixed. Dip your paper tubes in the mix, let them soak a minute or so, remove them and hang them to dry. What are you going to use it for, specifically? Judging by another post of yours, would that be for your "smoke devices", to resist burn-through? If so, I think what I posted above will work. By the way, as I'm sure you're aware, the exit nozzle for any smoke device can erode badly from the burning comp. But using full-strength waterglass right there will stop it. I bought Firefox's kit that makes a dozen smoke candles. I used waterglass liberally on the top disk, which had the hole in it, adn it worked great.
whitefox77 Posted January 12, 2008 Author Posted January 12, 2008 KNO3/sugar/wax smoke bombs. Up until now, my home made tubes have all caught fire around the top while the smoke is still coming out, while the commercial tubes I've purchased withstood the heat. When the tube catches fire, the amount of smoke generated goes way down.
TheSidewinder Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Treat *all* the paper components with the thinned water glass and see it that solves the burn-thru. You might want to "paint" some, full-strength, on the end discs and the tube tops where the heat is concentrated. M
psyco_1322 Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 If you go to frogfot.com and in the pyrotechnics section is a deal on parrafin smokers. He uses a can with holes in it. I have personally used a very similar set up with a pleated down lid instead of a wired on. It works very well, and totally eliminates the burning container problem plus you can get more in a can.
TheSidewinder Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Please remember that metal containers = BIG NO-NO IN PYRO. Metal containers turn into hand grenades if the burning residue manages to clog the exit nozzle. Commercially made fountains explode occasionally. I've even had a commercially smoke candle do it. And if that were metal-cased? Don't wanna think about it.
oskarchem Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Yes I experienced that today, you really shoulden't use any metan il pyro because today my mortar base wasmetal, filled with plaster, I'm happy I put it behind a rock, because it exploded, and I could have been badly hurt.
psyco_1322 Posted January 15, 2008 Posted January 15, 2008 Its a damn tin can! With waxed down smoke mix in it not flash! It is cut around the top and folded down. They nozzles will not clog with residue. If it does clog 6 holes and doesnt just pop the top open its not going to exploded like a frag gernade. So you are putting every display company to shame that uses steel mortars? Never mind all the storage containers that are metal? If your piss ass smoke bomb was made out of metal it would have blown the clay plug out way before the tube would have burst. Oh and how the hell did you destroy a steel moratr?
TheSidewinder Posted January 15, 2008 Posted January 15, 2008 Chill, psyco. My point was that "accidents happen". Should have worded it better because, yes, they use steel mortars for certain shells. (But you can bet people aren't standing near them when they're fired, at least here!) I wasn't talking about shipping containers, either. This *IS* the newbie question section, and I was pointing out a general rule: metal casings in pyro is a no-no. What you are suggesting could be dangerous if that "waxed down smoke mix" doesn't behave as it should. You and I might be able to make a perfectly good smoker with ALMOST no risk using a metal casing but again, as this is the newbie section, we try to encourage people to learn to walk before they run. Start with cardboard casings for smokers. Work up from there.
Mumbles Posted January 15, 2008 Posted January 15, 2008 I probably shouldn't be posting this here, and it goes against much common sense and safety advice. I think the NFPA still mandates that handfiring, as in the case where there are only a few mortars constantly being reloading, be done out of steel. There is some worry of HDPE becoming soft and plyable upon multiple firings. I have hand fired from steel many times. Rather unnerving, especially when a 4" salute is contained within. I can assure you it's still done, not that I can recomend it. My personal preference would to be to fire out of burried steel than any sort of rack. The steel gun will stay in the ground, a rack will fly everywhere. BTW oskar, I think more accuratly you blew up that weak cardboard tube you were using, which was on top of a metal base. The base was likely unscathed.
oskarchem Posted January 15, 2008 Posted January 15, 2008 Hey, psycho I didn't distroy a steel mortar, but the base was made out of metal, and so resulting that I put to much lift evry thing just well, exploded.
oskarchem Posted January 15, 2008 Posted January 15, 2008 Eugh... No it wasn't unscathed here is a pic of it:http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/464/pict0001wj2.jpg But then again I never said it was steel. But were getting way off topic here.
whitefox77 Posted January 15, 2008 Author Posted January 15, 2008 There is no reason not to use paper or cardboard tubes and end caps. Like I said earlier, commercial tubes and caps (such as the ones that come with Skylighters colored smoke kits, which I've used for this) work fine for KNO3/sugar/wax smoke devices. The hole in the cap might erode a little, but it won't catch on fire (at least none of mine have). On the flip side, I want to make my own tubes and end caps because I don't have a lot of $$ to spend on pyro, and I can make tubes for around 1/20th the cost of buying them (that includes the rather high price for the water glass). I haven't tested the water glass tubes yet, but I have high hopes for them.
whitefox77 Posted January 17, 2008 Author Posted January 17, 2008 I made a very simple 1mm think paper tube using two pieces of scrap printer paper cut in half lengthwise, and a 50/50 water/white-glue mix. Once the tube was dry I dipped the whole thing in a 50/50 water/water-glass mix, and let it dry again. For end caps I used two cardboard disks (think cardboard box), both of which had also been dipped in the water-glass mix. When set off the neither the paper tube, or the cardboard end caps burned. Although the paper tube did take on a golden huge on the outside suggesting that it was getting close to burning temperature.
TheSidewinder Posted January 17, 2008 Posted January 17, 2008 Yup, the waterglass did its job as you discovered. It's always a cost trade-off, though. Spend more money to make your devices safer and more reliable, or spend less to be able to afford making more *OF* them. You're doing it right, I think.
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