50AE Posted June 11, 2008 Posted June 11, 2008 Pyrotechnics has it's bad sides, I don't have enough chemistry knowledge to explain the instablility of Potassium Permanganate, but I guess it's like KClO3+S...KMnO4 flashes are a little more stable, but not safe enough to handle. Since a friend of mine got his KMnO4+Sucrose mixture self ignited, I don't want to use this thing anymore. The only use I can find for it, it's the ignition with glycerine.Flash is powerful, and with KMnO4 it becomes even more powerful. In addition, it's more instable. Not good.There are also alternatives for people with excuses that can't find KClO4. With KNO3 and MgAl, you can do a nice flash, also with Mg, but it becomes already more sensitive. KNO3/Al/S makes a slower flash, but good enough for a shell braking charge.
TheSidewinder Posted June 11, 2008 Posted June 11, 2008 (edited) A couple of recycled points for the newbies, since this is the Safety Thread. I hate to sound like a broken record, but it bears repeating. That.... and you asked. 1) Potassium Permanganate has no legitimate use whatsoever in commercial or amateur Pyrotechnics today. None. It isn't used in any star formulas, or as a component in anything else. 2) Anyone who makes and uses KMNO4 Flash is, as bonny mentioned tangentially, an accident waiting to happen. Those who have used it have been "lucky", not "good". We have been down this road before, and have had opinions from *amateurs* who have experimented with small amounts of it. But the experts, especially the old ones who have been in the field for decades, will tell you the same thing, and in a hell of a lot harsher terms, using adjectives like "Dumb Shit", "Idiot", "Moron", and so forth. It is highly unstable even under the best circumstances. KMNO4 flash is one mix that CAN simply blow up without any apparent outside influence. 3) Flash in general is the *ONE* compound in our hobby that is classified by the BATF as a High Explosive all by itself. And rightfully so. It's VOD may not actually be supersonic under most conditions, but the difference is irrelevant. It's close enough. And it takes a surprisingly small smount of it to kill you. 3 or 4 ounces will do the job nicely, and there are recorded instances of much smaller amounts doing so at close range. To say that "Flash Is Sensitive" is an understatement. It is sensitive to heat, friction, and static electricity for starters. There may be more factors, but those 3 are the most significant ones. 4) If you are a beginning pyrotechnician, you have ZERO business making or using Flash, period. If you have had experience making and using pyrotechnic devices with BP-based ingredients for a while (minimum 6 months, a year or more is better) you MAY be ready to experiment with its use. And by "experiment", I don't mean detonating a 10-gram batch just to hear how loud is the bang and how bright the light. I mean under the supervision of a mentor who knows the risks, the proper handling and mixing methods, and so forth. 5) It *IS* true that, once inside a finished device, the risk is lessened, sometimes considerably. But you still have additional handling precautions to consider, as well as tighter Federal storage requirements. Above a certain quantity, you have to store finished devices containing Flash in a Type I (High Explosive) Magazine. When I helped load guns for shows, I was always careful to note what types I was handling. And if they contained flash, I was especially careful when carrying and loading them. Overkill? Maybe. But I bet I outlive those who don't follow the same precautions. And the "old ones" I mentioned above? The ones who have used it for decades? They have very strict personal rules about the conditions under which they will allow themselves to make it. Jim Freeman, for example, will never do so in Winter. And in Summer, he has a humidity threshold below which he won't even consider it. He's the only existing 6-time PGI Grandmaster, and achieved his age and reputation by following all the rules, all the time. Some of his peers didn't, and they aren't with us today because of that. 6) You very rarely get a "second chance" with a flash accident. Your first mistake is your LAST one. Now that the facts are out of the way, here's opinion...... I personally wish that Flash were a LOT harder to make than it is. But because it *is* easy to make, and because the ingredients can be had relatively easily, it seems to be the "agent of choice" for the idiots who you read about on the News. And every such moron drives one more nail in the coffin for the Hobby. Don't become a statistic, hmmm? EDIT: Actually, 50AE, Chlorate/Sulfur mixes are MORE stable than KMNO4 mixes, (though still LESS stable than Perc/Al mixes). One of the best "dark break" mixes is Chlorate, Sulfur, and Antimony Trisulfide. I'd much rather work with that, than with KMNO4 flash. Edited June 11, 2008 by TheSidewinder
50AE Posted June 12, 2008 Posted June 12, 2008 Thank your for this big post. I think the other way, that KMnO4 is more stable than KClO3, but I don't care, because I won't use both of them.
Swede Posted June 12, 2008 Posted June 12, 2008 ...because I won't use both of them. I tend to agree. There doesn't seem to be much that you can make with chlorates that you cannot make more safely with perchlorates. I've read over and over, chlorates make brighter stars, and yes, it's probably true. I guess my stars will just have to suck then. This is a personal decision, and I have nothing against those who use chlorates; I simply have chosen not to. Barium salts, of the soluble kind. They scare me as well. As for flash, the only reason apparently that you NEED flash are very large salutes, which are not as popular as they once were. For breaks, and smaller salutes, there is whistle, BP, benzolift, and others. After ramming rockets dry with a mallet, I am much more confident that a BP burst or salute is not going to spontaneously ignite. BP is a real bargain (bang for the buck, sensitivity, cost) compared with many comps.
psyco_1322 Posted June 12, 2008 Posted June 12, 2008 ^Actually big salutes are still rocking the house and setting off car alarms This is shown greatly at a PGI convention where you cant go 5 minutes without hearing some kind of salute. Chlorate is just more reactive than perchlorate, which makes it good for a few select things. It was just the common oxidiser of old time pyro < which has been mostly replaced by perchlorate now. If you get a normal flash mix, not some exotic wierd comp, wet it shouldnt hurt it. If you let it set and dry you should be able to use it like normal. No need to coat your grass in Al. People roll flash cores all the time with water and it doesnt create any problems. Plus DUMPING CHEMICALS IN YOUR YARD IS NOT A VERY PROPER WAY TO DISPOSE OF THEM ! ! ! If one would rather make a bp based salute but would like a little more punch out of it I would recommend dusting your granules with some Al powder.
WarezWally Posted June 12, 2008 Posted June 12, 2008 Chlorate just gives up its oxygen more easily. Flash powder is one of the more "safer" highly energetic things you can make. Don't do anything stupid, treat it with respect and you will get along fine.
50AE Posted June 12, 2008 Posted June 12, 2008 Swede, I speak only for flash. But why not use chlorate in stars, if there isn't sulfur ? But you still need to be careful, because chlorate can give up oxygen from a static el. spark.
TheSidewinder Posted June 12, 2008 Posted June 12, 2008 *****SNIP*****Plus DUMPING CHEMICALS IN YOUR YARD IS NOT A VERY PROPER WAY TO DISPOSE OF THEM ! ! !Oh, well, in that case, dump it in a neighbor's yard. One whom you don't particularly like.... Kidding, folks, kidding. Tiny amounts of Perchlorate aren't going to hurt anything, but I agree it's still pollution.
Swede Posted June 12, 2008 Posted June 12, 2008 Swede, I speak only for flash. But why not use chlorate in stars, if there isn't sulfur ? But you still need to be careful, because chlorate can give up oxygen from a static el. spark. I agree and understand, sometimes perchlorate is unavailable or too expensive. Clorates work. I just don't have enough experience yet to care to work with them. Maybe someday. It's a personal thing, I would NEVER criticize anyone who used chlorates in a smart way. Salutes - I think I should have said "Salutes aren't as popular as they once were WITH REGARDS TO CITY CELEBRATIONS and such." Most pyros LOVE salutes, the gut-punching, big thumper type. Most of the communities nearby here in TX on the 4th have shows with NO salutes, not even one. I grew up in a Chicago suburb that put on a show that was perhaps 30% pure salute, string after string of them. It was awesome! My brother and I would pretend we were under attack by evil axis forces, with the salutes being near misses and such. It had us jumping up and down screaming with excitement.
al93535 Posted June 14, 2008 Posted June 14, 2008 Wow lots of opinions on flash safety. In my opinion, if you are making under 10-20 grams at a time. Wear appropriate gear to keep yourself from getting burned. Leather gloves, long sleeves, and eye protection. With this amount you are going to get one helluva burn, both UV and infrared heat. Unless your powder is confined, or you are using mg, or superfine chemicals there will be no explosion, just a flash. Be aware, any material other then cotton will contribute to your generating static including those leather gloves. If you are making more then that. Forget the safety gear... Its just going to be shrapnel anyways... Instead focus on your skills and preparation. Use static guard for gods sake. Wear only cotton, and don't wear gloves so you can have that extra dexterity. Here in lies some concern, if you are not grounding everything via a resistor, don't ground anything. If something like you is grounded, and another item you are working with is not and has a potential difference it will arc to you to get to your ground! So its all or nothing when it comes to grounding. I regularly make 500+ grams of 1 micron magnesium and nitrate composition. Whoa.. there is nothing more dangerous... A low ignition temperature oxidizer (perc is WAY safer then a nitrate in flash due to this fact), and a highly reactive fuel with minuscule particles. Not only that, but it goes through a 100 mesh screen. I feel relatively safe during all the mixing and screening. Why? Because I am not scared, I respect the stuff and take appropriate measures to minimize the chances for an accident. The comp and myself are equally charged, that is, I am holding a metal screen with my bare hands, thus there can be no static spark between me and the comp, or the screen. I use static guard, and I am very gentle. However, there is always risk... And I do think about it at times... Do I advise anyone to screen any kind of flash, NO! Diapering is just fine, and its a proven method. I don't even advise making flash, but yeah right, like thats going to deter you. I DO advise two things: Static guard is your number 1 best friend here... use it on everything, and Be gentle and avoid friction..... you will enjoy lots of pyro in the future! 1
GalFisk Posted June 14, 2008 Posted June 14, 2008 Insufficient or nonexistant grounding are both dangerous. whether your body is grounded or not, it can act as ground and you can have sparks between yourself and the screen, for instance. When screening together salpeter+frosting sugar, the screen can build up a big static charge (especially at the first screening when the ingredients are poorly mixed) and would spark to any metal, grounded or not. The only way to prevent this is to ensure everything is connected.Interesting point about the sensitivity of nitrate flash. Would it be more friction/shock sensitive as well, or is that sensitivity unrelated/less related to decomp. temperature?
TheSidewinder Posted June 14, 2008 Posted June 14, 2008 Do I advise anyone to screen any kind of flash, NO! Diapering is just fine, and its a proven method. I don't even advise making flash, but yeah right, like thats going to deter you. I DO advise two things: Static guard is your number 1 best friend here... use it on everything, and Be gentle and avoid friction..... you will enjoy lots of pyro in the future!I trimmed his post to save some space, but wanted to make it clear to anyone reading it that I'm referring to Al93535. If you "skimmed" his post the first time through, go back and re-read what he said. Why? For the newbies who may not yet know, despite the number of times its been ponted out, Al is a professional who owns a pyrotechnics business. I don't recall how many years he's been doing it, but it's a hell of a lot longer than I've been involved with pyrotechnics in total. You'd be well-advised to pay attention to what he has to say about Flash and its handling precautions. (And Al, you seem to have been.... overly polite(?)... about it, but if you know for certain that something I, or anyone else, has posted to be flat wrong, PLEASE say so. This is a Safety thread. I don't at ALL mind being corrected on something like this if I'm wrong!!)
50AE Posted June 14, 2008 Posted June 14, 2008 Cotton wearing is also very important, from my experience. I've never made sparks whith cotton clothes. But when I put a sinthetic shirt, sometimes I make sparks, when touchings bathroom valves, door handles, tools. I think it's a better method to stop the static building, instead of trying to evacuate it, with grounded wires and else. Cotton clothes and a humid environment - that's the best for me.
marks265 Posted June 15, 2008 Posted June 15, 2008 Thanks for that al I worry a heck of a lot more when it comes to assembly time than mixing the comp.
bogey1 Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 i did a five pounder once. i think that took about five years off of my life..
oskarchem Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 You made 5lbs of flash? ! EDIT: Heh, my 500th post...
50AE Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 A friend of mine from the Bulgarian pyrotechnic forums made some friction and impact tests on some composition. There are flashes, but also other powders. To do not start a new thread, I'll post it here.Translation... Composition 1 : 60% Cuo + 35%Al + 5%SSensitive : While grinding with a mortar&pestle, together with quartz sand, there is poping noise. With a slightly weak 1.5kg hammer hit, it explodes loudly. When hit with an air rifle, it explodes. Composition 80% CuO + 20%Аl needs a more powerful hit with the hammer. It still ignites from the air rifle bullet impact. Composition 2 : 50%KNO3 + 30%Al +20%SHighly Sensitive :While grinding with a mortar&pestle, together with quartz sand, there are sparks and smoke. With and average hit from the 1.5kg hammer, 70% of the tests exploded, while the rest didn't explode or only smoked. When hit with an air rifle, almost nothing exploded, only 1 from the 5 tests. Composition 3 : Pb3O4 + Аl. Ignites from the smallest spark. Toxic.Highly sensitive : There are nresults with the mortar&pestle. With an average hit with the hammer, it explodes without hesitation. When hit with an air rifle, it explodes. The addition of sulfur increases highly the sensivity to any force, even to static. It becomes a suicidal composition ! Composition 4: 60% KMnO4 + 20%Al + 20%SHighly sensitive: With the mortar and pestle test, it's the most sensitive of all mixtures. It pops continiusly. With a strong impact from the hammer it explodes powerfully. When hit with the air rifle - 30% of the tests are successful. When the ratios are 80%KMnO4 + 16% Al + 4%S the test with the rifle are 70% successful. Състав 5: 70%KMnO4 + 30%AlSensitive: There is no result with the mortar&pestle grinding. With a very strong impact from the hammer, it explodes, but 20% didn't. Nothing exploded from the air rifle. Composition 6: Black powderLow sensitive : No result from grinding with the mortar and pestle. With a very strong impact from the hammer 4 of 10 tests exploded, and one smoked. Nothing ignited from the air rifle test. There are also comments, I translated only the most important.
bogey1 Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 You made 5lbs of flash? ! EDIT: Heh, my 500th post... yes, for a ground salute. i dont think i'll ever make that much again. actually it was a big waste of fine chemicals if you ask me.
oskarchem Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Sorry guy's I son't know why but I dorgot that a pound is 0.453kg, I had thaught that you made 5kg of flash. Anyway, I don't think I will be trying that. Stay safe.
Richtee Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Sorry guy's I son't know why but I dorgot that a pound is 0.453kg, I had thaught that you made 5kg of flash. Anyway, I don't think I will be trying that. Stay safe. oskar... if it makes ya feel any better... to MY mind... 5 Lbs. is STILL a bit on the crazy side.... OK ALOT on the crazy side!
BLAST420 Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Not uncommon for large aerial or rocket salutes Really I didnt know that it was "common" to make 5 POUND FLASH BATCHES!!! What types of salutes use 5 pounds point me in the direction so I can see for my self! doest it get to a point where it is just over kill?? as for what to wear while mixin 5 pounds, youd be best off mixin it with NOTHING on!!
WarezWally Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Some of the salutes at PGI conventions are massive, some cplmac's rockets use massive flash headers. 3-4" salutes are not uncommon, those take a lot of flash to charge. This is a 3" cylinder salute (cplmac)
TheSidewinder Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 Really I didnt know that it was "common" to make 5 POUND FLASH BATCHES!!! What types of salutes use 5 pounds point me in the direction so I can see for my self! doest it get to a point where it is just over kill?? as for what to wear while mixin 5 pounds, youd be best off mixin it with NOTHING on!! A WPAG member I know made a 6-inch cannister salute that had 10 pounds in it. We shot it at a semi-private get-together on the property of another member who lived nearby. To say it was impressive would be an understatement. Once you work up to making amounts larger than roughly a pound or two at a time, the only real difference between them is how far from the blast site the Medical Examiner has to search, to find pieces of you to give to your next of kin when he's done with his job. 1 pound or 100 pounds, you're just as dead. The thought behind making large amounts at once it is that it's statistically safer to make ONE LARGE batch, than to make dozens of SMALLER ones, when even the smaller ones will kill you if you have an accident. Everyone I know that makes such large batches are professionals, who take every precaution I know of (and probably some I haven't even heard of). And they do it in a location that, should the unthinkable happen, THEY are the only ones to suffer the consequences. I've heard the amounts that the Dr. X crew mixes up sometimes and it "puckered me up", as it should anyone with a lick of sense.
Boomer Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 I don't want to advocate forbidden things here, but compare to pound quantities of a mixture that kills you from a little static, just about EVERY secondary HE is way safer. Before mixing only 100g of flash, I rather make paint buckets of just about any AN composition. You could give your kids a bucket of ANFO, a sledge hammer and a blowtorch to play with and they would die of boredom. Why do the pyro organizations insist on salute mixes that are flame sensitive or worse?
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